Usually it takes three books and we have four. Also because 7th ed. books were so bad in many cases, I think it is less likely to happen. Everyone keeps saying this - the next book is always the test, (people said it for Ogres, for Empire). They can't win really!
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I noticed many lists include Ogre as top 5.
Wow... are they really scary? I havn't played against them before.
As said before we now have 5 books and although the Empire are only just out they certainly seem as balanced as the rest. Atleast wait for the broken book to arrive (if it ever does) to start complaining about power creep. The top tier armies do indeed seem to be the agreed upon broken armies from 7th! I can't wait for them to get the 8th edition treatment. Ogres are a balanced army, but the Mournfangs are very good.
WoC should not even make the list, they have 1 very powerful build that requires you putting 700+ points of your army into trying to get a combo off. I would love to know what makes them so op
Possibly that one very Powerful build? Combined with other things like MoK Chaos warriors, Marauders and the puppet.Originally Posted by Dreadlordpaul
I wonder if any of those who put dwarfs in the top 5 would like to explain their reasons...
My Top 5 (not in Order)
-Daemons
-Skaven
-WoC
-Lizardmen (Slan with specific lores only, w)
-Dark elves (probably the army i would put top)
I would argue the Chosenstar that you're alluding to is in fact a weaker than a more balanced WoC list.
A much stronger build would be a big unit of around 10 Tzeentch Knights with Favour BSB backed up by Disco Stu, a couple of Warrior blocks and 1-2 War Shrines. Essentially look at the builds that top players (specifically in the UK as that's where you're based) were using prior to the ETC draft, which weakened the knight bus somewhat.
As to them being OP- the Knight bus is incredibly hard to stop unless you have the dedicated tools to to do so, and even Lore of Metal isn't that great of an answer to it- with very few drops the army usually goes first, so it's on top of you before your second magic phase (the first Searing Doom gets scrolled) and from then on it's either got MR or a Ward from the Shrine or it's in combat. Very very hard to deal with, as it not only soaks up punishment but also packs a mighty punch.
The same goes for blocks of around 18-20 Warriors backed up by Shadow magic- that 3+/5++ is usually taken as a trade off for not hitting very hard, but when Mindrazored they become not only hard to kill but also hist incredibly hard because of their high WS and I.
Even a more standard Warriors list with Lore of Heavens can work very well (but it's sadly not optimal), because it can address the single greatest weakness of the Warriors book- that is, no access to re-rolls in an army that revolves around combat.
Personally I don't consider the army to be OP, but there are certainly some aspects to it that are very hard to deal with.
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The puppet really is not that powerful, as for Marauders they are basically the same as flags yes they have higher ws and I BUT they can't martyr and are not unbreakable. CW while they are good they aint op
Nice man, 1 vote for High Elves.
High Elves can be dirty, but only when Teclis is considered. Otherwise, meh.
Tier threads amuse me. They differ wildly if you're talking about comped, slightly comped, uncomped, ETC comp or some other crazy houserule comp. In short, they differ from person to person in relation to where they play and what their clubs use.
Yes only +2 WS +1 I permanent S5 and +1 attack for... Half the points.
And great weapons cause them to always strike last? they are so easy to kill
I've got to join the others noting that these threads are stupid as hell.That's almost the exact wording of the post that formed in my mind too
Nothing wrong with discussion of armies and builds and so forth, which are generally stronger than others etc, it's just this idea that every army, even with all it's different options and variations, can be so neatly popped into a numbered rank. It's a very convenient thing to think about, but it's also totally absurd.
And if you don't want a range of responses, including some scornful of certain things, then don't post in a public forum
1. Highly biased and anecdotal as everyone has their list of the top five and very rarely do we get a very clear picture. Most of the time we get a "Who thinks that belongs in the list." or "Why isn't this in more people's list." This is all subjective and the group surveyed is far to small and specific to get any sort of accurate measure. "Opinion based rankings from a biased and too small sampling" would be a better title.
2. When stats are used usually someone grabs stats from GTs or some tracking site which are JUST as biased and can't account for what was taken to the tournaments and why or what the composition if any was at the tournament or what other factors were in play to bias who took what army. Often the data is obsolete as there might be a brand new book. Obviously 2011-2012 is not a good sampling to use for the power level of the new VC book, or even the OK book.
3. None of this accounts for the variety of builds that might be used. You can say you can predict what an Ogre Kingdoms army will be, but I bet I can surprise you with what list I am working on right now and would like to try in the next tournament I hit. Some things are predictable, but a lot isn't.
Basically "tiering" army books in this way is utterly useless and stupid and amounts to very little factual valid data to make a judgement off of.
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1. Daemons
2. Warriors of Chaos (they don't even need the combo)
3. Skaven
4. Dark Elves
Doesn't matter when they cost negative 10 points. (I exaggerate, but not by much)
Is not Thunder Stomp itself a special rule? If that is your argument then Thunder Stomp can not be allowed to let you Thunder Stomp, as being able to Thunder Stomp benefits Thunder Stomp, therefore you can't use the Thunder Stomp rule in conjunction with Thunder Stomping to Thunder Stomp. ~Aglemar
Yeah really..
Topics like this one are Ghosts of Editions past.
Right now, if you want to be serious about Tiers, all you'll be able to say is that armies like DoC and Dark Elves are probably a bit stronger than Wood Elves.
And that doesn't really give us much - and even if refraining to add any further personal bias there are actually Wood Elf players who have no problem winning so even this can be debated.
Again: A Ghost from Editions past. Entertaining passtime conversation at best. Kinda cool to get glimpses of what's rocking on different player's local environments. Nothing real or tangible though.
The whole idea - the actual premise - of Tiers is just flat out ruined in 8th Edition. I know it's evidently a tough nut to swallow as changing one's opinion is never easy - but there are no Tiers in this edition. We're looking at certain 7th Ed books in a bubble (yeah Daemons bo-ho, Dark Elves *grumble grumble*, Skaven slaves *argh!*) but once you start playing with Random/Closed lists and Scenarios in the "proper" RAW fashion all that jazz is just a waste of time really.
Good read this thread though, all though I've lost count of how many threads like these there's been on this board..
Other people have already piled on this post, so maybe this is an unnecessary comment, but I can't help myself. That's like saying a Skaven list with no Slaves, HPA, or war machines/weapon teams would be completely terrible. More or less accurate, but a nonsensical point to make considering that those things find their way into almost every army.
My friend just started an Ogre army and I find them extremely intimidating when they're horded up. They generate an ungodly amount of damage. We play arranged games, so I have the opportunity to put stuff in my lists to deal with the looming threat, but I have no idea how you would cope with something like a Gutstar while using a balanced, all-comers list (short of depending on a cheapass, always-useful power tool like the Lore of Death).
Last edited by Balerion; 13-04-2012 at 20:47.
marauders have 1 WS higher, not 2.
Great weapons make their I irrelevant. If they take flails, then their strength isn't permanently 5.
Marauders can have a mark of khorne, flaggelants have frenzy innately.
Flaggelants have unbreakable, and can get rerolls to hit and wound (which increase their damage output to the absurd) and +1 T. The price for this, is double the cost of a marauder, but then marauders are acknowledged to be exeptionally underpriced.
I am finding it difficult to give an absolute ranking, and I guess that can be attributed to 8th edition doing a decent job of levelling the playing field amongst the older books, but several armies definately (still) come out on top as cranking out some of the 'ardest lists:
- Daemons (dem rotten devils!)
- Dark elves (As a guy at my local GW adequately puts it: "Mindrazuuuuurr!" Throw in the dagger, no limit on dice per casting, the hydra and the pendantlord and you're set)
- Lizardmen (Slann are awesome. 'look, I stole yer 6's! Look, I'm adding free dice!' Salamanders rule. And of course skinks. Skinks everywhere)
- Skaven (unlimited slaves!)
- WoC (they just wreck your ****)
Last edited by The bearded one; 13-04-2012 at 20:58.
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Weird the number of Dwarf mentions at the start of the thread; I play Dwarfs pretty much all the time (still bulking up most other armies I have), and I don't think they're top tier. They used to have a lot more cheesy builds in 7th, which 8th nerfed, but on the other hand they gained the ability to do a lot more with their combat troops. Really right now they play pretty okay, the main problem is that their anti-magic is outdated, but even so that really just helps them to counter all the spells that can currently decimate them, as army-wide Initiative 2 isn't the best defence against Purple Sun and Pit of Shades! Same goes for most Augment spells, as the inability to do the same can hurt badly. Cannons are nastier, but they only really get a couple of turns to take out enemy monsters.
Anyway, I'd say Dark Elves are definitely bad, particularly those with plenty of Hydras, combined with lots of Power dice. Daemons… I suppose my experience isn't with such cheesy armies so I find it hard to say.
Last edited by Haravikk; 13-04-2012 at 21:21.
Nope, they are just big fat orcs. With moving cannon and mournfangs.
A dwarf build regarded as very powerful is that used by Aaron Chapman (aka Furgil); 40 warriors with great weapons, another 40 warriors with great weapons, 40 hammerers, 2 cannons, an organ gun, a str5 reroll scatter grudgethrower, a runelord with 2 scrolls and MroBalance and a tanked BSB. It's quite a sight to face on the other side of the table, because it is quite an array of warmachines, but even if you reach the other side there's still 120 T4 dudes with great weapons to deal with.
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Dwarfs are a lot like the 7th edition Vampire Counts book as it was played in 8th edition; there's an insane amount of worthless garbage in it, but if you concentrate on the good units you wind up with an extremely powerful army.
Incidentally, that's true for every 7th Ed book being repeatedly ranked high in this thread.
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