Top Tiers in 8th edition

[Megad00mer]

Do the new Vampire Counts not even rate? Are they viewed as a poor army or just mid-tier?

[The bearded one]

Dwarfs are a lot like the 7th edition Vampire Counts book as it was played in 8th edition; there's an insane amount of worthless garbage in it, but if you concentrate on the good units you wind up with an extremely powerful army.

Insane amount of worthless garbage? There are only a few things universally rejected from the book: flamecannons after the FAQ removed their 12" range, and daemonslayers. Apart from that all the infantry is quite workable. At most they may cost a point or so too much. If I recall correctly the #2 dwarf general (#2 on rankingsHQ anyway) wins his tourneys with good ol' fashioned ironbreakers, while internetwisdom rejects them in favour of hammerers.

[xxRavenxx]

Insane amount of worthless garbage? There are only a few things universally rejected from the book: flamecannons after the FAQ removed their 12" range, and daemonslayers. Apart from that all the infantry is quite workable. At most they may cost a point or so too much. If I recall correctly the #2 dwarf general (#2 on rankingsHQ anyway) wins his tourneys with good ol' fashioned ironbreakers, while internetwisdom rejects them in favour of hammerers.

Slayers of all flavours are bad. Don't defend them.

The issue dwarfies have after that is that hammerers point for point outdo most of the other infantry, making them "worthless" by comparison, and meaning competitive people won't touch them. Which is a shame, as they perform perfectly well.

[Balerion]

Insane amount of worthless garbage? There are only a few things universally rejected from the book: flamecannons after the FAQ removed their 12" range, and daemonslayers. Apart from that all the infantry is quite workable. At most they may cost a point or so too much. If I recall correctly the #2 dwarf general (#2 on rankingsHQ anyway) wins his tourneys with good ol' fashioned ironbreakers, while internetwisdom rejects them in favour of hammerers.

I should be more careful about throwing around hard words like "worthless" (a loaded term in the wargaming community) but given that this thread is about power rankings I took it for granted that people would translate "worthless" as "less points-efficient than direct competitors for the same role within the same armybook".

[boli]

Nice man, 1 vote for High Elves.

High Elves can be dirty, but only when Teclis is considered. Otherwise, meh.

HE are annoyingly tough. Out of my three armies they are easily the most powerful. There is somethign to be said for WS4+ ASF and reroll to hit. they are in a word: brutal.

Sure I've broken them down with unbreakables and rediculously sized hordes thanks to their low toughness but add in life lore and teclis and they are pretty much the best army you can get; and even without teclis they are still strong in the magic phase.

[Hrogoff the Destructor]

HE are good, but only if the enemy tries to get in an all out slugfest. I could stomp them into the ground with every other army I own, including Bretonnia.

No unit apart from Pheonix guard would ever even reach my battleline with my Empire or Lizardmen. I could easily outbrawl them point for point with my WoC and Daemons. And the only way my Brets could lose is if I encounter a wall of Pheonix Guard, well and Teclis of course.

1. Skaven
2. WoC
3. DoC
4. DE
5. Lizardmen

[Snake1311]

Insane amount of worthless garbage? There are only a few things universally rejected from the book: flamecannons after the FAQ removed their 12" range, and daemonslayers. Apart from that all the infantry is quite workable. At most they may cost a point or so too much. If I recall correctly the #2 dwarf general (#2 on rankingsHQ anyway) wins his tourneys with good ol' fashioned ironbreakers, while internetwisdom rejects them in favour of hammerers.

Wellllllll, thats not strictly true. Whilst most other unit entries may find some use, albeit extremely rarely (ironbreakers, thunderers, etc), a lot of the rune are horrible to the point that many people don't even know they exist because no one who is right in the head has ever used them; also, the oathstone. And considering that shields are universally crappy as an upgrade, and that the only upgrades we really get are shields or GW, technically near 50% of our mundane upgrades are pure badness too .

The only people who put dwarfs as top tier are the ones who don't really play with a strategy, and just panic when they see big blocks and warmachines. Seriously, the dwarf army brings to the table the two things most common in 8th ed: big blocks of GW infantry, and warmachines. If you are unprapared to deal with that you are clearly doing it wrong.

[NecronBob]

The order really depends on what army you play, but I'll take a stab:

1) Lizardmen
2) Ogres
3) Dark Elves
4) Warriors of Chaos
5) Skaven

[The bearded one]

a lot of the rune are horrible to the point that many people don't even know they exist because no one who is right in the head has ever used them;

this really isn't strange for a 6th edition book.. even then the percentage of useful runes might equal the percentage of useful items of some of the 8th edition books. Do a rundown of ogre bignames & items and select the useful ones.

I should be more careful about throwing around hard words like "worthless" (a loaded term in the wargaming community) but given that this thread is about power rankings I took it for granted that people would translate "worthless" as "less points-efficient than direct competitors for the same role within the same armybook".

Not combining the word "worthless" with the word "garbage" might do the trick.

And considering that shields are universally crappy as an upgrade, and that the only upgrades we really get are shields or GW, technically near 50% of our mundane upgrades are pure badness too .

My longbeards with shields are always performing admirably thankyouverymuch. I also recall that the person who is ranked the #2 or #3 dwarf general always uses ironbreakers. There's more than 1 dwarfbuild that wins tournaments.

Slayers of all flavours are bad. Don't defend them.

They're not that bad against tough monsters and such. In fact they can throw out more attacks against those than any other dwarf unit, because they can use additional handweapons while increasing their strength with the slayer skill. The problem is simply in getting to the monster. The rules for slayers do feel rather uninspired though, but I don't think a slayer is far below the great weapon warrior we so love and adore. He lacks armour and corestatus, but is unbreakable and has the option to go with additional handweapons instead while gaining a respectable strength from the slayerskill against anything tough. If anything there is the giantslayer gongaline tactic as our equivalent of the stubborn pendant dreadlord.

Incidentally I just painted an avatars of war slayer, see signature * shameless advertising *


I don't think dwarfs are in the top tier, but I don't think they're very far below it either. They've got it in areas that became stronger in 8th edition; sturdy (great weapon armed) infantry, and awesome warmachines. The great majority of their book is still really very usable. Apart from updating outdated runes and balancing some underpowered/overpowered options (the organ gun's gonna get it! ), it might just as well have been an 8th edition book. Slap a hard cover on it and full colour pictures and it'd be hard to tell the difference.

[Wesser]

Double post

[Wesser]

HE are good, but only if the enemy tries to get in an all out slugfest. I could stomp them into the ground with every other army I own, including Bretonnia.

No unit apart from Pheonix guard would ever even reach my battleline with my Empire or Lizardmen. I could easily outbrawl them point for point with my WoC and Daemons. And the only way my Brets could lose is if I encounter a wall of Pheonix Guard, well and Teclis of course.

I usually encounter walls of spearmen and Phoenix Guards. While not as crazy as dark elves for their points HE spearmen are still scary.

Phoenix Guard are a brutal unit. Very little can outfight a horde of these chaps especially since them high mages are out to support the unit

I personally find that Skaven are a lot less scary as they have some very easily exploitable weaknesses. The only chink HE has is their toughness

[Faitfull]

1: Skaven (just take a random army and u get a desent army, be tactical and the battle is over before it startet!) shame love the models
2: Demons (got a heavy nurf in 8th, but still a nightmare)
3: Dark Elves (point to point so reducules)
4: Ogres
5: Warriors of Chaos (Marouders for the win)

Notes: a very carefull selected woodelf army is also a absolute powerhouse, but need a selective player. Where I come from, we got a woodelf player that is vertical an auto winner with his army

Personal I am a highelves player, I dont see them on top... mind u, the magic is great with high lore and reroll to hit is awesome. But they are way to expensive for T3 and really poor core choises. I would must rather have dark elves warriors to amazing 6 pts than spearelves to 9 pts and archers to 11pts......

[vinny t]

1. Skaven - poorly worded FAQ and cheap models
2. Dark Elves - Excel in every phase of the game, lots of effective units to pick from
3. Lizardmen - Solid defense and salamanders are gold
4. Warriors - Crazy solid blocks and hellcannons are the best warmachiene in the game
5. Daemons - LD bomb is just too good and Bloodletters + Siren Song pushes them OTT

[Montegue]

Slayers are not as bad as they are made out to be. For one point more than a GW warrior you get an unbreakable unit that can either go XHW or GW, and that can wound just about anything on a 4+. In this environment of Leadership test shennanigans from the deamon banner, the Vamp Counts, and even the Empire, it helps to have a unit that will not break until it's dead.

They can be gunned down, but if you keep them in the Grungni radius they should be fine. Once my unit of 30 metal slayers is painted, I will be bringing them into my tournament list tests to see how they fare.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

HE are annoyingly tough. Out of my three armies they are easily the most powerful. There is somethign to be said for WS4+ ASF and reroll to hit. they are in a word: brutal.

Sure I've broken them down with unbreakables and rediculously sized hordes thanks to their low toughness but add in life lore and Teclis and they are pretty much the best army you can get; and even without teclis they are still strong in the magic phase.

H.E are a terrible tournament army. Realistically the only thing they have going for them is: Magic Phase (items/charcters make it reliable), cheap chaff(Eagles can be taken in the HUNDREDS!!! joking aside they're pretty good), #2 chaff unit in the game). Everything else is solid overcosted units that you have to take (ie; P.G, W.L, Archers) , or otherwise garbage (the last time I have seen Shadow Warriors? . . . lol oh thats right never).

Banner of Sorcery and a BoH/Teclis is what people always site as "good" in their book, but it's banned in most tournaments, and in tournaments it's not banned it can be easily countered by some tournament armies.

Shadow Magic is the only way to go with H.E and with Teclis. It can get him out of a unit of P.G as well as the BoTWD and switch in actual charcters in their stead. However, the operandi of this list comes from the casters, the entire game you are guarnteed to be playing hide and seek until either: your Phoniexstar has cleaned up the enemy, or they reach Teclis/BoH.

There is no other "good" builds that work at regional and national level G.Ts in non-ETC hammer.

[vcassano]

H.E are a terrible tournament army. Realistically the only thing they have going for them is: Magic Phase (items/charcters make it reliable), cheap chaff(Eagles can be taken in the HUNDREDS!!! joking aside they're pretty good), #2 chaff unit in the game). Everything else is solid overcosted units that you have to take (ie; P.G, W.L, Archers) , or otherwise garbage (the last time I have seen Shadow Warriors? . . . lol oh thats right never).

Banner of Sorcery and a BoH/Teclis is what people always site as "good" in their book, but it's banned in most tournaments, and in tournaments it's not banned it can be easily countered by some tournament armies.

Shadow Magic is the only way to go with H.E and with Teclis. It can get him out of a unit of P.G as well as the BoTWD and switch in actual charcters in their stead. However, the operandi of this list comes from the casters, the entire game you are guarnteed to be playing hide and seek until either: your Phoniexstar has cleaned up the enemy, or they reach Teclis/BoH.

There is no other "good" builds that work at regional and national level G.Ts in non-ETC hammer.

I tend to agree that high Elves without Teclis and the Book of Hoeth are not that strong. However, I really think the potential is there for a good player to do well with the list. I feel that it is one of the few lists where every unit is viable (except Shadow Warriors).

[datalink7]

Do the new Vampire Counts not even rate? Are they viewed as a poor army or just mid-tier?

I'd say that they are too new to know for certain and people are still figuring out the best builds. I'd rate them mid-tier right now. Certainly compeative and not a poor Army by any means.

[ewar]

We have indeed had this conversation before, but last time I believe you were vehemently arguing that Scar-Vets aren't broken which should immediately be a red flag. I'll explain why SKrox are good though, in the interests of being constructive.

First up, the Skinks are not meant to kill anything. This is a common misnomer. Their purpose, however, is to soak up damage whilst the Kroxigor behind them kill stuff. Initially, they do not look that good at doing this- mediocre WS and low toughness do not for a good tanking unit make. However, when you throw a Ruminating Loremaster Light frog into the mix, it is very easy to make those skinks WS10 and -1 to hit, and at the same time the Kroxigor behind them become WS10, I10 and gain ASF and an extra attack (using 2-3 power dice and a free one for the first spell, then the same for the second spell, then the same for the third spell). You simply cannot stop all 3 spells barring some sort of fluke- you might be able to get rid of 1 with dice, and maybe scroll a second, but then the third is through- and that's assuming you still have a scroll left by the time the unit engages.

So, the Kroxigor deal out the damage whilst the Skinks at the front tank. The T2 really doesn't matter when the majority of things the unit goes after needs 6s to hit them.

I'm not aware if double Slann has won a major UK tournament recently (a handful of one day events certainly), but the most recent good finish that I can remember off the top of my head was Jack Armstrong's 10th place at Winter Incursion. By all accounts he would've won the event except for putting a non-ethereal frog in a building against mortars. Turns out D6 hits each doing D6 wounds does not make for a happy frog... in any case, the second frog gives you a huge amount more flexibility. Whether you want to go with one or 2, you can build a very strong list around it.

One thing I will concede- I have not actually played with any other the things I have mentioned. I have, however, played against them and seen them played with multiple times. Given that you don't play competitively yourself, it might be worth paying a modicum of attention to the people who talk from experience as opposed to just dismissing it as theoryhammer because it doesn't fit in with your slightly fluffier experience.

Being constructive is good - let's go that route.

In your example the opponent only has to throw all their dice at SOL - so unless the slann wants a miscast they will generally stop that spell. I don't know what you do outside playing warhammer, but if you have rudimentary maths skills, try and run the numbers of a skrox unit buffed how you like fighting an average special choice. It is the least points efficient use of a slann with light that I can think of, barring some very specific examples, such as Skrox vs Chaos Knights.

Have you ever seen a competitive LM list use this in game?

Dual slann I'm happy to concede I haven't seen in action - and I have always deferred judgment until I've seen it in game - if it works then fair play, I'll try it some day.

As for scar vets - I think you wilfully misunderstand me still - they are not broken. Are they a great choice? Categorically yes. But are they fundamentally game changing and undercosted for their abilities? Ha, it cracks me up it's even suggested. They don't break a single normal rule of the game - if you have difficulty against them, try taking something with killing blow - problem solved. Are other fighty mounted characters broken? No moaning about chaos exalteds?

If you don't agree, can you at least define what makes something broken in your book?

To be honest Tom, I don't have much interest in bickering with you on a forum, I just object to you posting in every LM/tourney/tier themed thread with such hyperbole. It's like you can't say anything without it being "absurd", "OP" or "broken". The game just isn't that imbalanced - it comes down much more to good or bad matchups between specific lists. I find LM deal very well with Dark Elves, but suffer badly to daemons. Which one is the most powerful? Who's to say, it comes down to personal experience.

As for my 'lack' of competitive gaming - I do ok thanks, attend 2 or 3 tourneys per year which unfortunately with a family is all I can. However I hold my own - I'm sure I don't need to remind you (again) I placed best LM at throne of skulls last year with a list you no doubt would consider 'fluffy'. Try broadening your gaming horizons a bit, play in a campaign, try using a themed army, whatever - it'll give you a better perspective on how the game fundamentally works instead of focussing continually on the lists other people use and do well with.

Out of interest, do you play any other armies aside from dark elves and wood elves? Maybe borrow someones LM army and take them to a tournament and see how it goes. I'd genuinely be interested to find out if it changes your opinions of them, because I can tell you we have some epically bad matchups for a top tier list. Try beating a castled Dwarf army with LM - honestly, it's not a fun game.

[BlackPawl]

I would say:

1. Dark Elves
2. Skaven
3. DoC
4. WoC
5. Lizardmen

[tmarichards]

So from that we can conclude that:

1. SKrox are bad.
2. Scar-Vets on Cold Ones are balanced and in no way slightly undercosted.
3. Daemons are a bad match-up for Lizards.

...

As always, the only way to win this game is to not play, so let's just move on and agree to disagree