Top Tiers in 8th edition

[Rubicon]

I'd genuinely be interested to find out if it changes your opinions of them, because I can tell you we have some epically bad matchups for a top tier list. Try beating a castled Dwarf army with LM - honestly, it's not a fun game.

Sorry, Castled Dwarfs are top tier now?

[ihavetoomuchminis]

My 2 cents:

1- Skaven
2- WoC
3- Dark Elves
4- Daemons
5- Dwarfs.

I've read someone saying that dwarf slayers are bad. Have you compared them to a Flaggie?

[tmarichards]

They are when it comes to killing hobbies

[ewar]

Sorry, Castled Dwarfs are top tier now?

Haha, how did you take that from what I said!? It's a bad match up for LM - but was used as an example of how a list not considered top tier will still present a problem for one of the high end lists. So essentially the exact opposite of you took it.

[Urgat]

Ah, dat.
we'ze gobbos are top tier, you all are da dregs

[Methios]

+1 for the dude that dared to mention woodelves in a top tier army thread. You have some balls man >.>

[vcassano]

They are when it comes to killing hobbies

Yes; worst army of them all. So very dull. Which is a huge shame, because they have some lovely models and have a very characterful background.

[Aluinn]

Just my opinion but:

1. Daemons--Almost everything is still horrifically undercosted and they're immune to way too much, e.g. if I try to make use of enhanced Fear and Ethereal units to bolster my VC army they just laugh and I've just wasted points; their free access to magic and Loremaster is also dumb; have some of the most powerful SCs around whilst the majority of armies have no SCs worth taking

2. Dark Elves--Ridiculous shooting, ridiculous magic, extremely good combat without needing to take any exceptionally large units due to multiple attacks everywhere and generally striking first with Hatred, arguably the best Scouting Skirmishers and the best Monster in the game (for its cost), plus enormous synergy with Lore of Shadow and Cauldron buffs, not to mention all the potential Pendant of Skill nastiness

3. Lizardmen--Own the magic phase, which is a pretty big deal, and generally have very good stuff elsewhere, though internal balance is far from great; Chameleons are another contender for best Scouting Skirmishers in the game, and Saurus are a very, very solid if not eye-popping Core unit

4. Skaven--Have their bad matchups, which is why I place them here, but still can present most armies with an uphill fight from Turn 1 due to hugely outnumbering anything else whilst having plenty of units to maneuver for advantage, a terrifying Monster, decent war machines, Gutter Runners being the last contender for best Scout Skirmishers, and between their Ld rules and Steadfast turn what was apparently intended to be an unreliable army into one of the most, well, steadfast in morale terms. Vulnerable to all of their little toys like the Doom Rocket failing to work, but devastating when they all do happen to work. The cherry on top is amazing magic with a spell that can easily turn bunkers or diminished elite units into rats with little risk to Grey Seer casters who get IF/miscasts, and the rest of their Lores being quite strong, too.

5. Ogres--Supreme in combat, even against the likes of WoC, and have good shooting to back that up, whereas WoC do not, and are overall faster than other combat armies to boot. I need not mention Mournfangs being kind of busted but I'll go ahead and do so. Firebelly is one of the best utility characters around and Hellheart is one of the scarier of the 8th Ed. magic items.

I can't bring myself to put Warriors on this list when Ogres can now do pretty much everything that they can do, sometimes better, plus plenty that they cannot given their cannons and Leadbelchers providing very respectable shooting while the Hellcannon is probably the most consistently overrated thing in the entire game. Warriors are great in combat ... and that's all. They're too one-dimensional and I don't think they're markedly better than most of the 8th Ed. books due to that.

EDIT: To be fair WoC have very respectable magic, but their claim to fame in that area derives mainly from, IMO, Infernal Puppet on the one hand and their wizards being harder to kill than most on the other. However, the latter advantage is not going to result in them having any sort of Magic Phase supremacy nine times out of ten, as it's only advantageous when the enemy Level 4 dies and theirs does not--and most players will very adequately protect their Level 4 to the point where this isn't such a big deal. Infernal Puppet is amazing but I can't honestly say it's better or even as good as some of the magic tricks that multiple other armies on this list can pull, so again I don't think it's giving them a high place in any ranking of magic capability in a world of Slaan disciplines, HE/DE power dice manipulation/Book of Hoeth (or unkillable wizards if they want to go that route and really trump the survivability of WoC wizards), Grey Seers with Warpstone tokens and Skalm, Hellheart, etc.

[DragonArmy]

HE are good, but only if the enemy tries to get in an all out slugfest. I could stomp them into the ground with every other army I own, including Bretonnia.

No unit apart from Pheonix guard would ever even reach my battleline with my Empire or Lizardmen. I could easily outbrawl them point for point with my WoC and Daemons. And the only way my Brets could lose is if I encounter a wall of Pheonix Guard, well and Teclis of course.

1. Skaven
2. WoC
3. DoC
4. DE
5. Lizardmen

2nd. I could never rate DE as army 3 because WoC and Skaven are such great counters.

[Ponge]

1. Skaven
2. Dark Elves
3. Daemons
4. Warriors of Chaos
5. Ogre Kingdoms

[Aluinn]

I'd like to know in what universe WoC "counter" DE. If you look at base stats, sure, but in practice DE will just either Wither and shoot things to death, win combats by virtue of Cauldron buffs and hexes alone, or Skillrazor WoC units off the table in one round. Failing any of that, DE are also excellent at avoiding combat when the need arises.

IMO DE counter WoC rather than the other way around.

[DeathlessDraich]

EDIT: After calculating the results the top 5 are:

1. Skaven
2. Demons
3. Dark elves
4. Lizardmen
5. Chaos

Top tiers? - a favourite discussion but ...
I did not bother writing a list my ebook Warhammer Tactica 8 - still waiting for Wintermute to give me the go-ahead on releasing excerpts here.
Don't mean to sound arrogant but
Once you've seen the mathematical calculations and its implications, you will never ask this question again because you will know & understand Warhammer tactics a lot better
If you want an answer mathematically calculated, then pm me.

[tmarichards]

Well if you didn't bother to write a list then clearly there isn't one and everything is equal.

Or, you simply don't know as much about the game as you think. Guess we'll never know...

[vcassano]

Top tiers? - a favourite discussion but ...
I did not bother writing a list my ebook Warhammer Tactica 8 - still waiting for Wintermute to give me the go-ahead on releasing excerpts here.
Don't mean to sound arrogant but
Once you've seen the mathematical calculations and its implications, you will never ask this question again because you will know & understand Warhammer tactics a lot better
If you want an answer mathematically calculated, then pm me.

How can it be mathematically calculated? That's insane! Now, don't tell me 'read the book and find out'.

[Maoriboy007]

I'd like to know in what universe WoC "counter" DE. If you look at base stats, sure, but in practice DE will just either Wither and shoot things to death, win combats by virtue of Cauldron buffs and hexes alone, or Skillrazor WoC units off the table in one round. Failing any of that, DE are also excellent at avoiding combat when the need arises.
IMO DE counter WoC rather than the other way around.

Eye of the Gods and Warshrines basically buff Warriors into superiority without having to bother dipping into the magic phase and there is not a lot you can do about it. They can also hex or magic nuke you right back, and much more safely with Puppet while making the DE magic phase more perilous (although SDagger vies for parity there). A hit from a hellcannon will pretty much take a unit off the board, and is still a nasty monster to boot. WoC are easily as good as DE if set up like that, ther is a ggod eason the word Chosenstar comes up a lot when describing least favourite units.

[The bearded one]

* o noes, it be 'le chosenstar du la doom!' *

* dreadlord charges in, cackling like crazy *

[Maoriboy007]

Do the new Vampire Counts not even rate? Are they viewed as a poor army or just mid-tier?

I'd rate them about as good as beastmen without the monster pricing issues. I think too many undead players invested in Tomb Kings shiny models and are trying to get use out of them right now.

Sorry, Castled Dwarfs are top tier now?

It can be nsaty to have most of your army blasted off the field and the rest chopped up by GW hordes

* o noes, it be 'le chosenstar du la doom!' *
* dreadlord charges in, cackling like crazy *

*shrug* meh, you'll never get points out of either of them, and the dreadlord will likey go down eventually. Its as good a tactic as you'll get against them I guess without just trying to avoid the unit. But it comes down to drawing the warrior unit or the warrior unit wins more often that actually ever beating them.

[Gop]

I can't see why daemons are rated top tier by so many people. Is it the fateweaver build? Please explain what build you're talking about. Same for dwarves. They can be good, but top tier? Nope. They are are more drawish than winning, though they don't usually lose badly either (in my experience).

[NitrosOkay]

God all these broken books need 8th updates.

[tmarichards]

I can't see why daemons are rated top tier by so many people. Is it the fateweaver build? Please explain what build you're talking about. Same for dwarves. They can be good, but top tier? Nope. They are are more drawish than winning, though they don't usually lose badly either (in my experience).

Essentially, Daemons do everything far too well for far too few points, and on top of that they have an incredible synergy within the book. Access to Loremaster for example, even on a level 2, for 140pts is utterly absurd. It gives them a far more efficient magic phase than most other races can get for half the points.