Beastmen Help.

[WarHammerman]

Hey Hey!

I'm just starting to break into Warhammer Fantasy, coming over from 40K (and WarmaHordes)

I've taken a look over a few armies- and the one that speaks to me most is:
Beastmen.


I was wondering if some of you Wonderful people out there would be willing to lend me some of your experience and insight.

I am looking to go against convention, just a little, and try to do a 'low model' count kind of army - so, of course, I am looking at "Minotaurs"

Can anyone offer me any suggestions on a competitive Minotaur army, below-average model count (for WHFB), in the 2500 point range?


Also, remember I'm new - so if you could explain why you're suggesting what you are, that would be wonderful.

[Ister Flersson]

I would recommed buying several small units of ungor raiders to prevent your minotaur units from being flanked, as well as for taking out warmachines using ambush. Many players frown on ambush, but considering how cheap raiders are (30p for a minimum unit) you can afford to lose them. Four or six units of 5 with musician lets you control your enemy's movement phase as well as helping to nullify those pesky mutiple wound-causinf warmachines and will cost you less than 200p.

A fun character to try is a Doombull on a magic carpet. Not the best one perhaps, but could proove a nasty surprise for some.

[decker_cky]

Minotaurs work pretty well if you stick a few characters in the unit. Run 3 wide with a full command and 2 characters, minotaurs' problem of resilience disappears. Tough army to learn the game with, as it doesn't work very well until at least 2000 pts, and you need to be really careful with positioning.

[minionboy]

All the help you need can be found right around the corner at the herdstone: http://z8.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=idx

[WarHammerman]

Hey all... Here is my first stab at a 2500 point army
Lemmie know how it goes:

Doombull (General)
+ Armor of Destiny

Great Bray-Shaman
+ lvl 4

x2 Gorebull
(1 is BSB)

x8 Tuskgor Chariot (Wanted to keep numbers low, and this one is also rather fast to help run things down)

x2 Minotaurs
3x2 each
+ Musician +Standard Bearer

and 1 Ghorgon

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

I'd get rid of the Ghorgon (the 3 275 Rare monsters are all greatly overpriced) and get some Ungor Raiders, and some Razorgors and/or Harpies (whatever you can fit in the Special).

Also, you want to try to make sure your Doombull and Gorebulls all are on the "unkillable" side w/ whatever options you give them. Usually some combo of Armor of Destiny, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, shields, Ward Talismans, etc. I know, hard to fit all that in 2000pts, but if you build it right and surround it w/ the right units, the Minobus can succeed at 2000pts.

[WarHammerman]

I've gotten some advice elsewhere - and I'd love to hear what you all think of this change.

We're 2268 / 2500 - the rest of the space (232) is for Magic Items, if ya wanna suggest some.

Oh, and Thank You- Everyone.

Taurox
General

Great Bray-Shaman
LVL 4

Gorebull
Extra Hand Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, BSB

Ghorgon

Minotaurs (9) (3x3)
Extra Hand Weapons, Musician, Standard Bearer, Blookine

x8 Tuskgor Chariots

[Gotrek]

even thou the list is fine there's something players coming from 40k don't realize at first that the use of special characters in fantasy is normaly frowned upon.
you might wanna check with your group of players if they accept them on a regular base to save yourself some grief. besides, a regular ramhorn doombull is as strong and about the same price.

[DruidNei]

You can get better results with fully kited Doombull than Taurox, popular build is something along the lines of ASF sword, ramhorn helmet, ha, 4+ ward. And the BSB will need a solid ward save too. Other than that i feel that AHW might be a waste on BSB, you want him survivable.

I would prefer a solid infrantry block instead of chariots as a core, or at least a bunker for lvl 4 mage. The list seriously lacks chaff, chariots are too slow for usual chaff function. As someone suggested before try to fit some harpies, single razorgors or about ungor riders for a try at ambushing (I often use 4x5 ungor riders). You might want to bring Blackened Plate to protect your minobus from fire.

[WarHammerman]

Okay then how about this:

(2498 / 2500)

Doombull:
General, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sword of Swift Slaying, Ramhorn Helm, The Other Tricksters Shard, Gnarled Hide

Gorebull (a):
Extra Hand Weapon, Shield, BSB, Armour of Destiny

Gorebull (b):
Extra Hand Weapon, Armour of Silvered Steel, Ironcurse Icon

Minotaurs (A) (6) (3x2)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Bloodkine w/ Blackened Plate

Minotaurs (B) (6) (3x2)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Bloodkine w/ Sword of Battle

Great Bray-Shaman
lvl 3 - Lore of Beasts

Bray-Shaman
lvl 1 - Lore of Shadows

As an alternative, i could drop both Shamans and go for a Ghorgon

[DruidNei]

Character equipment looks nice, you missed core units this time. My point about chaff still stands, harpies and ungor raiders can really help against warmachine heavy armies. They also serve as additional deployment drops (not important if you're going chariot heavy in core) and diverters. Might also work against enemy chaff units. You don't want your minos overruning d6 after a single sabertusk that got in your way and exposing your flank in the process. Mind that half of this is theoryhammer, as I always run my beastmen with big blocks of gors and bestigors.

You might want to check the herdstone forum mentioned earlier or post your list there.

[Chicago Slim]

So, what you've got here is what we call "MSU", which stands for Multiple Small Units. That's a design philosophy that dominated the metagame late into the term of 7th ed. With the advent of 8th ed, the consensus opinion was that 8th ed "patched" the MSU tactics (because in Warhammer Fantasy, there's a lot of emphasis on breaking the opponent, which is really hard to do if they can claim Steadfast). More recently, I think I've seen people start to incorporate MSU into some lists, and I think that Beastmen is one of the lists where MSU can work-- particularly with the chariots/minotaurs build you're looking at.

That said, I'm not sure it's the easiest list to play.

We talk here on the Fantasy side about "winning in several phases" (the conventional wisdom is that you need to win at least 2 of the 4 phases: movement, magic, shooting and close-combat). I'm not convinced that that's the best model for learning or winning the game, but it's definitely a popular model for thinking about it. Beastmen obviously have a hard time doing much in the shooting phase (with no long-range shooters and no artillery-- or, at least, none that's under 275 points, which is a LOT of points for a stone thrower, even if it does move-and-shoot and fight rather better than a normal 80-point stone thrower). With their limited Lore choices, and no big magic buffs, they also struggle to really define the magic phase (roll a 5 for Winds of Magic; cast nothing successfully; the end. By comparison, I played a High Elf list a couple day ago that rolled a 5 in the Magic Phase, and had 10 dice to cast with... versus 3 dispel dice...)

So, that really leave Movement and Close Combat. Winning in the Close Combat phase is about knowing the odds, and gambling well. A skillful 40K player should be pretty well prepared for that. Winning in the Movement phase, any more, is not much different, now that charges are about odds (what's the likelihood of making a 16" charge with Move 7 cavalry? Knowing this is a basic skill for Warhammer fantasy players)-- but there's a lot of subtlety to winning in the move phase, even beyond the probability. Like in a game of chess, the Movement phase has a lot to do with drawing your opponent into traps, and getting them to make moves that you can capitalize on.

In 7th ed, what made MSU armies powerful was the ability to generate enough wounds to prevent any return attacks (because you didn't used to fight back, if your base-to-base models died). In 8th ed, with the new "Step up" rules, MSU armies work best when they can either generate enough attacks to either whittle down a sizable opponent in a single round of combat (which is not likely, if they have more than 20 models), or when they can guarantee that they'll continue winning (so your guys don't break) even without the charge.

Tuskgor Chariots are good at the former (obliterating huge numbers of opponents, and leaving them without any ranks). Minotaurs are good at both (they can generate a ridiculous number of wounds, round after round, which both wins fights and chews away at ranks...)

My biggest concerns would be that you don't have a lot of models, and very little of what you've got has much durability. Watch out for heavy-shooting armies (which will chew up both Minotaurs and Chariots). Consider, as DruidNei suggests above, "A solid infantry block." This could be Gors (who can take a lot of damage) or Ungors (who are fairly cheap per model.) Talk to your local players about proxying those for a while, and see what works for you.