Empire vs. Skaven - which army will win?

[BlackPawl]

So there is a discussion in the army list forum going around. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...Char-Hvy-Build)

I want more feedback which army would you see would win a fight, so use the poll and please give feedback why you see it, Ok?

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Empire (magic and character heavy):

Lord:
Wiz Lord Lvl 4 (Light)
Forbidden Rod
Opal Amulet

Wiz Lord Lvl 4 (Life)
Power Stone

Heroes:
Warrior Priest w/shield,Hvy A
(+) Vanhorstmann's
(+) Dragonhelm

Captain w/ GW
(+)Armour Of MI

Warrior Priest w/shield, Hvy A
(+) Cloak of Ulric

Warrior Priest w/GW, Hvy A
(+)Potion of Foolhardiness

Witch Hunter w/Brace
(+)Charmed Shield
(+)Dragonbane Gem

Core:
45 Halberdiers
(+) Standard, Musician
(+) 20 Halb Detachment
(+) 20 Halb Detachment

Rare Units:
Steam Tank

Celestial Hurricanum

Luminark of Hysh

Grand Total: 1996

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Skaven (spartacus list (many big slave units)):

Grey Seer, 4+ Ward, Power Scroll

Chieftain, BSB

Plague Priest lev. 2, plague cencer, Dispel Scroll, Dragon stone

Warlock with pistol and doom rocket

100 slaves with speers, musician

75 slaves, musician

75 slaves, musician

25 clanrats, banner (BSB and GS goes here)
WFT

2 rat darts

5 Gutter Runner, poison, slings

HPA with spikes

Doomwheel

WLC

1981 points

[zak]

It depends on many factors. These include the set up, the scenario and the individual skill of each player. I wouldn't fancy playing with either army to be fair. Once the HPA and unbreakable slaves are fixed the Skaven army should change considerably.

[Jind_Singh]

It depends on many factors. These include the set up, the scenario and the individual skill of each player. I wouldn't fancy playing with either army to be fair. Once the HPA and unbreakable slaves are fixed the Skaven army should change considerably.

Agreed - played a proper 2500 point game yesterday and honestly the Empire will get creamed - the list concentrates too many points into magic - and the Empire is not designed to do that well.

With 4 channels a turn I average an extra power or dispel die - the contraptions you have grant an extra die.

But with a level 4, level 4, THREE priests, 2 bound wagons - it's going to be very lack luster in magic.

I had 3 priests and a level 1 fireball mage - and 2/4 characters did nothing per magic phase.

I had 40 Halberds with 20 swordsmen - and the attrition rate is going to grind your troops quicker than his.

I had 10 stubborn Rieksgaurd - vs your none - and those Knights helped me stay in the game with a 1+ save and stubborn - in your list I don't see what your anvil will be.

I also had access to all 4 warmachines with engineers - You have a single steam tank that will have it's work cut out - and it's REALLY hard to move as it's random movement now - so it goes in straight line and stays facing the direction of travel - with a cannon that shoots ahead.

And turn 1 I misfired doing 3 wounds to my tank - which made it very unreliable going forwards in the game.

You obviously have your heart set on going character heavy, and it's your game, but I think you will need to learn the hard way that characters don't cut it - you need an army - and the model count you posted would just be sufficient for a 1000 point army - yet alone 2000!

Pray that you can somehow face the Skaven inside a forest so they don't steadfast- and that your detachment can flank the slaves to reduce their ld by 3, and their cannon doesn't wipe out your guys - or that your guys get eaten alive by the HPA!!

The character content of this list is just about doable in 3000 points - drop a level 4 and a priest and get more bums on seats!!!

[Askari]

ONE (largeish) block of Empire troops? Y'ouch this fight is gonna hurt.

The Skaven player only has to tarpit everything with slaves, then hit something with the HPA, rinse and repeat. The Doomwheel takes care of the Stank (or one of the slave blocks). The Grey Seer and BSB can stand in the Clanrat units with your own army completely unable to harm them without wiping out what's in the way (250 slaves).

Yeah, I'd be placing my bet on the Skaven.

[Urgat]

I'd love for the scenario rolled to be blood and glory. Would be fast

[ihavetoomuchminis]

Is this even a question? REALLY?

[Beastlord]

Which will win? Whichever is played best, although you dont exactly have much tactical flexibility with that unbelievably dull Empire army.

[Souppilgrim]

There is no contest, Skaven will win, unless there is a really lopsided skill level in players. That's just speaking about the two lists you presented though, not the books in general.

[Jericho]

Lost track of how many times I've seen these medium size horde + a bajillion characters = win type army lists since the new Empire book came out. That just doesn't seem to be a smart way to do things when your troops have 3's across the board for stats... that unit and all those characters get hit with one bad spell (permanent -1T would suuuuuuuck) and game is over before you ever saw combat. Even if you made it in unscathed, good luck chopping down several hundred rats before your guys all die

I really hope this style of Empire list never gets put on the tabletop. Like Jing_singh says, the footprint of that army looks like a 1k list (1500 tops) and has no business going up against any of the top lists in 8th right now. Sorry for the rant, had to get it off my chest

[bluemage]

The empire list is just awful, there's nothing in the army. Just a whole bunch of characters that won't do anything. I expect the skaven list will just steamroller it if players with some skill.

[GodlessM]

The general crappiness of that Empire list aside, in my experiences usually in the case of Skaven vs the World, Skaven win.

[SirBrokenSword]

The general crappiness of that Empire list aside, in my experiences usually in the case of Skaven vs the World, Skaven win.

:P haha! I have to agree. They really are incredibly powerfull when used with 8th edition in mind.

I;m surprised to see anyone thinks that the Empire list will do anything more than get crushed.

[TsukeFox]

:P haha! I have to agree. They really are incredibly powerfull when used with 8th edition in mind.

I;m surprised to see anyone thinks that the Empire list will do anything more than get crushed.

Treachery is everywhere!!

All it takes is a couple lack luster rounds of shooting on Skaven behalf.

From today at 15k my doomwheel crashed into the flank of 3 demigrphys-Zzzap misfires, impacts wounds were saved- rat swarm failed.
Whomp whomp.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Possibly the best extant 7th edition army versus what is generally agreed to be an average 8th edition army?

Major victory to the Skaven.

You're sticking the forbidden rod, and no ward save, on your General? Hmm, I can gain D6 power dice by blowing up my main wizard? That's going to go well... (that was sarcasm by the way). A level 1 with it doesn't hurt if it blows him away. A level 4? That's not so good.

Two level 4s rarely get enough power dice to justify their existence.

The Luminark is not the best wagon. The +1 to hit justifies the presence of the other.

You have leadership 8. Even with re-rolls that's nothing.

If I were going wizarding it would look like.

Level 4, Shadow, VHS, SoS, ToP he dishes out the buffs/debuffs which are necessary to keep Empire infantry in the fight, and can win almost any challenge. He's not too easy to kill either.

Battle Standard, full plate, enchanted shield, dawnstone, sword of might.

Warrior Priest, heavy armour, shield every infantry block needs one of these. Every knight unit with 10+ models needs one too

Warrior Priest, heavy armour, shield

Warrior Priest, great weapon, heavy armour, barded warhorse

30 Greatswords, full command, standard of discipline Level 4 and BSB go here to give you a leadership 9 bubble for the rest of your units.

50 Halberds, full command

10 Knights, full command, great weapons

Cannon

Cannon

Helblaster

Comes to just under 2000.

[GodlessM]

All it takes is a couple lack luster rounds of shooting on Skaven behalf.

Ah, what? There's almost no shooting in that list (as is the case in 99% of Skaven lists).

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Major Skaven victory, no doubt. That Empire army consists of one, perhaps two combat units. That's like saying "Here's your target". The Skaven can avoid and run rings around the Halberdiers and Stank, tarpit whichever they like, and multi-charge and defeat whichever one they like.

No amount of boosting and characters is going to save the Empire list when the Halberdiers are charged on both flanks for example.

By the way, I would be interested to hear the reasoning of those who voted for an Empire win or more.

[Dreadlordpaul]

Skaven all the way

[Zinch]

Skaven major victory is my vote. The Empire list is just awful, you need a LOT more bodies...

[Ponge]

The empire list is really bad so the skaven should be taking this home easily.

[Spiney Norman]

In all honesty, that Emire list will lose to any competently designed army.

You have 7 characters, but none of them appears to carry a battle standard, or did you forget to list it?

The absolute maximum number of characters I can envisage in this size game is 4, 5 if I want an engineer to babysit my helblaster, that would be; wizard lord, general or Arch lector, cptn BSB and a priest, you should get that lot for under 600pts, maybe slightly more if you include the engineer.

You have 3 warrior priests, but only one troop block, the whole point in bringing a warrior priest is to give his unit hatred, and you get no benefit from giving the same unit hatred 3 times, bear in mind if you decide to go for an arch lector on a war altar priests in units are therefore unnecessary.

Now magic
You have 8 levels of magic, 3 priests, each with 3 bound spells, and 2 bound spells on your Mage wagons, that gives you a total of 19 castable spells, with a maximum attainable 12 power dice. I know a little redundancy in the magic phase can be useful, but I think you passed that point a long time ago.

Here's what I would do
Drop 2 priests and one wizard Lord and give the captain the battle standard, then get a general, or possibly an arch lector and get yourself another block of troops, preferably greatswords carrying the banner of discipline to house your general.

Then look at knights and consider whether you really need a both a Luminark and hurricanum, I would suggest probably only the hurricanum is really needed, and then get a cannon, preferably two, there is no unit so versatile or useful in the entire list.