Getting into SoB, Would like some overview

[White_13oy]

So, I've decided to make the plunge into SoB, But I would like to know what is the feeling of the units, must haves, must avoids, I was going to build an army off the models I liked, but before I go spending $15/$17.25 for three models and then $14 for one model, I figured it'd be best to ask. So I'll make a nice numbered list to start.

1. Can an almost entirely foot army work?
2. I know Repentas have rage and seems like their Act of Faith would have been awesome if acts of faiths lasted until your next turn, but i like the models, but how do they fare?
3. Seraphim, yay or nay
4. Characters, who's the hot tamale and who's the rotten tomatoes?
5. Penatence engines?
6. Anything else to contribute would be fantastic!

Thanks.

[lantzkev]

That old perv on the walking throne seems pretty awesome if he's anything like the one in the grey knight codex, sacrifice little tiny units with unerring orbital strikes....

[Clarkson]

St Celestine is an annoying bitch.. the fact with recent faq changes mean she gets up on a 4+ no matter what, not sure if that is even if she fails. but when she does, she moves upto 3" of where she dies.. and the denial of that by putting something in the way is hindered by her podlike rules of minimum distance away.

she is a beast in CC, lots of power weapon attacks.. she has a JP for an in-effect 18" charge range, not sure on fleet..

penitence engines are ok.. and seem to me like mini dreads..

i dont collect SoB so not really 100% on whats good or not.. but definitely think on getting Celly if you going for a special character

[Dervos]

1. From what I hear, it can, but rhino spam is much more commonplace. I think for foot your looking at huge blobs of sisters 15-20 with kyrinov somewhere in there for his fearless bubble. Other than that I really don't know. If you go entirely foot you won't have any delivery system or weapons past 24" for anti-tank, though you could possibly rend with retirbutors... in a foot list you'd be limited to multi-melta and plasma guns for 24" anti tank.

Most armies I've seen always have dominions in rhinos, wether they are loaded with melta or flamers they seem to be in most lists because it oftentimes seems impossible not to take them. I personally don't have experience with Seraphrim but they are s3 t3 I3 assault troops, 12" move is nice but their pistol upgrades are expensive and they cost more than dominions most of the time. (unless your taking 10-strong squads with 4 guns and combi weapon in a rhino)
Dominions can still scout but without the rhino they lose a huge amount of movement,

On foot 6" scout + 6" normal then melta

On rhino 12 " scout + 12" move max, then hop out and shoot

2. I don't like repentia like the look of repentia at all and have never used them nor want to.

3. Went over this a little in 1, in my opinion Dominions are just so amazing you should always try to take 3 squads of them, maybe 2 dominons 1 seraphrim squad at most, they are trying to be assault marines and they just are not they have a neat invuln save re-roll(a 6+ one, whoppe), I doubt they would surivive long enough in combat against most things to be able to use Hit and Run and their I is terrible to say again. They can get places quickly and tie things up but other than that...they just lack the "oomph" compared to dominions.

4.
Saint Celestine

An amazing steal, 2+/++4, a pw that always wounds on a +4 which is a blessing since she is T3, she doesn't have EW but she can come back to life which is great for annoying the heck out of your opponent, she's moves at jump infantry speed and her sword also has a heavy flamer template. Unval Thawn wishes he was this good.

Uriah Jacobus
Not only does he unlock the incredible killing machine that is the battle conclave, he let's his unit re-roll all missed hits in CC, his banner gives +1 attack and feel no pain, HE IS AN AMAZING DEAL for 90 points he is stupid good like Celestine

Kyrinov
When running foot sisters of if you need a second battle conclave this is the HQ you want to take, he has a 6" fearless bubble as well, not as amazing as Uriah but since good to have, especailly compared to the confessor (shudder)

With how amazing these three are your almost sure to ignore the cannoness and confessor.

5.
It has rage, its opened topped and has rhino armor, stay far far away from it, god help you if it gets immbolized, taking one is just a waste of time, you'll really only want these if you know your going to be fighting hordes, the retributors and exorcists are far more appealing heavy support options, the exorcist because of the enormous lack of long range AT fire the rest of the army has and the retributors are a good cheap way to deal with hordes and light vechiles.

6. I don't know what the previous faith system was like but this one is not to be relied upon. Most of the time your going to try and use whatever faith points you have either attempting to twin link your dominions or granting rending to your retributors. Problem is you only get D6 faith points every turn, and you need to make a +5 roll for a act of faith to go off and you only get modifiers if your being led by a superior, the hq's that are listed in the codex, or if your squad has taken casulties, you can spend points on items to re-roll tests or to attempt and generate a faith point but the amount of points you spend on it just isn't worth the cost for what your getting. More often than not you need every point you can get trying to get other upgrades for your army like combi-weapons on superiors and taking special weapons for your squads.

Battle conclaves are a god send for sisters, our troops are ws3, t 3, i3, s3 across the board, conclaves give us a nasty assault unit to take care of other dedicated CC squads or to save squads currently in combat. DCA S4 with two power weapons, and 2 attacks, so normally they are three base, however if they are with jacobus, his banner gives them another attack making them four, and if your charging you have 5 attacks at WS5,S4 I6 with no armor saves allowed AND you can re-roll your misses on the charge because of righteous rage(kyrinove, jacobus and priests have this), you have crusaders which also have a power weapon, they aren't there to kill stuff though they are there for wound allocations they have storm shields and help your squad stay alive should whatever you assaulted managed to surivive your death cult assassins and hits back against your squishy conclave. Arco flagelllants....well they aren't exactly the shining stars of the conclave, I can see people taking them for the torrent of attacks against hordes but all they have is FnP and they are T3 they'll get shot to bits, at least DCA have a ++5 not that it will avail them much if they become targets in a shooting gallery. You want to take the conclave with jacobus/kyrinov in a rhino with your crusaders and DCA.

It's really really expensive but I see that you already mentioned you realized that but this army is REALLY expensive. If your going to do foot sisters its going to cost even more. A 5 girl squad of retributors costs more than a exorcist for example....

Also we have no idea when we'll see a real codex release and what/if any new models we get or if anything gets transfered into finecast/plastic, or even squad boxes...

Skip several pages until you get to the part where the new codex came out but this is the tactica thread on warseer

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...TERS-of-BATTLE!

Theres also a smattering of similiar sob thread in the tactics forum, also dakkadakka has a couple of very vocal SOB players they have many different threads as well.

[Commisar]

1. Conventional wisdom is, No. Sisters do all there damage at Rapid fire range. Fully Mech is probably the way to go. Repressors are best, if your wallet and local Metagame allow for Forgeworld.
2. Lovely models, better then they were rules wise. A Slightly Sub Par Choice by the numbers, but I say include them if you like them.
3. Seraphim. Yay. Yay. Yay. But learn what they are for. Getting in close and shooting and then running away. Not chargeing into combat like loons.
4. Hotest Tamale would have to be Uriah Jacobus. He's basically an Auto Include. Stick him in a Battle Conclave. (6 Death Cult Assasins, Three Crusaders and a Rhino) and watch your opponent weep. Kyrinov is rotten tomatos. Celestine is pleasing salsa.
5. Are in exactly the same Boat as Repentia IMO.

6.

HQ
Jacobius - Auto Include. (with Conclave + Transport)
Celestine - OK #2 Choice
Cannoness - OK #2 Choice (Retinue (IN IMMOLATOR) Situational)
Krynov - Pointless
Vannilla confessor - pointless

ELITE
Celestians - Meh. If you want
Repentia - I love the models.
Both of those can benifit kinda from attached preists. SoB dont realy do Combat squads well.

Troops
BSS Squads.
Debate rages between the "Hvy Flamer and Melta gun on all squads" camp. and the "Hvy Flamer and Flamer for Some, Duel Melta for others" camp. Depending on if you want Focus or versitility. Needs a Repressor/Rhino. Dont get a power Sword for VSS, waste of time. Ranged upgrade ok. I like PLasma pistols, Combi something is fine too. Squads of 10 to fit in the Repressor/Rhino

Fast:
Seraphim - Very cool, fast, Usefull.

Dominions:
OMG-Emperor. Squad of ten. Max Meltas. Transport. They have scout. Auto include at least one.

Arvus Lighter
If you use FW Stuff. You can take three Arvus Lighters as a Fast Attack option, and put your Repentias, Melta Gun Dominions and or Battle conclave in FLYING TRANSPORTS.

Hevey:
Exorcist - Another Auto include, most peaple run two.

Retributors: Hvy bolters have there uses against hords, they dont even need a transport. Not as usefull as an Exorcist.

Penitant Engines: Also cool but, not as usefull as an Excoricst.

[Ixe]

1. Conventional wisdom is, No. Sisters do all there damage at Rapid fire range. Fully Mech is probably the way to go. Repressors are best, if your wallet and local Metagame allow for Forgeworld.

Conventional wisdom is right. Foot Sisters are a joke army. You'd do better with footdar, which is already a bottom tier build.

2. Lovely models, better then they were rules wise. A Slightly Sub Par Choice by the numbers, but I say include them if you like them.

More than slightly sub par, use them if you're a fluff gamer and you play against other fluff gamers (or wins aren't a big deal for you). Yes they're better than they were, but you can't control where they move, they have little chance of reaching any target before being shot down, and although they're supposed to be assault specialists their I1 and low toughness will see them pounded by most other assault specialists.

3. Seraphim. Yay. Yay. Yay. But learn what they are for. Getting in close and shooting and then running away. Not chargeing into combat like loons.

More like meh meh meh. They are good, but their special weapons are overcosted and the nail in the coffin is that they compete with the best SoB unit, Dominions. No army with Seraphim is going to be a top tier army, though if you're running Celestine one unit of Phim might be worthwhile to give her a bodyguard.

4. Hotest Tamale would have to be Uriah Jacobus. He's basically an Auto Include. Stick him in a Battle Conclave. (6 Death Cult Assasins, Three Crusaders and a Rhino) and watch your opponent weep. Kyrinov is rotten tomatos. Celestine is pleasing salsa.

Yep, Jacobus is no-brainer. Takes a battle conclave from good to ridiculous, and buffs your faith in with the bargain.

5. Are in exactly the same Boat as Repentia IMO.

WORSE than repentia. MUCH worse. NEVER use them, unless you take a swarm of 9, and then only because you a) have way too much money and b) want to mess around.

6. HQ
Jacobius - Auto Include. (with Conclave + Transport)
Celestine - OK #2 Choice
Cannoness - OK #2 Choice (Retinue (IN IMMOLATOR) Situational)
Krynov - Pointless
Vannilla confessor - pointless

Yep.

ELITE
Celestians - Meh. If you want

Not meh. Very useful to squeeze in a small special weapons unit and add another rhino/immolator to your transport spam for cheap. Their stats are nothing to write home about, but the ability to take a small squad is key to help you spam transports and special weapons.

Repentia - I love the models.
Both of those can benifit kinda from attached preists. SoB dont realy do Combat squads well.

Don't attach priests to anything. You'll embarrass all SoB players--though not half as much as the author who actually wrote the darn things.

Debate rages between the "Hvy Flamer and Melta gun on all squads" camp. and the "Hvy Flamer and Flamer for Some, Duel Melta for others" camp. Depending on if you want Focus or versitility. Needs a Repressor/Rhino. Dont get a power Sword for VSS, waste of time. Ranged upgrade ok. I like PLasma pistols, Combi something is fine too. Squads of 10 to fit in the Repressor/Rhino

No plasma pistols. Combi melta or flamer yes, if you have the points left over. Heavy flamers are no longer worth the points really, they're overcosted for their damage output compared to regular flamers. Only take them if you're getting spanked by 4+ save units all the time--unlikely. SoB squads these days should be 2x flamer or 2x melta. You can triple down by taking combi-flamer or comb-melta to really give them some grunt, or you can add versatility by adding the opposite combi-weapon. I lean towards SoB with 2x flamer myself because dominions and celestians are more efficient melta platforms and the Battle Sister act of faith is most beneficial when rapid firing bolters.

I strongly recommend against the repressor, too. It is flashy nonsense. SoB win by focusing fire and wiping out a chunk of the enemy army, not by trying to shoot from within their tanks. SoB play an all or nothing game. When it's time to kill, it's time to KILL, and that means disembarking everything you can and letting them have it so there's a statistically insignificant chance of your target surviving. If you fire from repressor fire points you only bring some of your firepower to bear, you're not going to be assured of destroying your target, and the retaliation from surviving enemies will likely cost you whole squads.

Dominions:
OMG-Emperor. Squad of ten. Max Meltas. Transport. They have scout. Auto include at least one.

NO. Squads of five. Squads of ten are inefficient. You want as many transport hulls in the list as you can get, and concentrating your meltaguns into fewer transports is a recipe for defeat.

Arvus Lighter
If you use FW Stuff. You can take three Arvus Lighters as a Fast Attack option, and put your Repentias, Melta Gun Dominions and or Battle conclave in FLYING TRANSPORTS.

Pretty much cheating as far as I'm concerned. Obviously it's perfectly fine if that's how you play, but IMO the skill is winning with the list you have, not adding on special supplemental rules with ultra-expensive models. That's like a CCG where you win by buying the best cards, rather than by skill.

Penitant Engines: Also cool but, not as usefull as an Excoricst.

Actually worthless. Exorcists are indeed great, retributors are hard to see working that well. Yeah they're cheap, but anyone who fears them is just going to swat them down, in a mech list infantry on foot with a line of sight (and rets will need a line of sight to be effective) will always die right away, and it won't really benefit your army. In a transport spam them best possible thing is for enemies to shoot their anti-tank at something other than your transports. But with rets, you're distracting anti-troop fire which couldn't kill your tanks anyway, there's no net gain. The enemy's anti-troop was worthless in the early game because of your transport spam, until you set down those rets for him to play target practice with. Exorcists are key because they're a major threat and they distract fire from your transports. The enemy ignores them at their peril, but they're hard enough to bring down that they protect your rhinos and immos well. Penitent engines also distract fire, but they die from harsh language so they really don't cut it.

[duffybear1988]

Well I'm going to be controversial and disagree - I find a Penitent Engine to be a great 3rd heavy choice (after 2 Exorcists). I usually leave him in reserve and bring him on from my board edge to help clear out units getting too close to my objectives. He dies every game but he always gets his points back.

Repentia are also great for this tactic, but personally I prefer to borrow a rhino from a normal sisters squad (that I stick on a home objective with a multi melta and meltagun) and send them off to cause annoyance where ever they are needed. Never underestimate a multiple charge of repentia against an IG tank wall. They work as a great counter assault unit to tip the balance in your favour. Also a cheap priest can really help them out.

I play in a pretty WAAC club and I have quite a few more wins than losses with SoB and I always include Repentia and Penitent engines

[Commisar]

Yeah, Without a doubt, Ixe is right. That's the advice I would follow if I was building a list for a tournament.

I would just find a list built along pure Ixeian Principals dull to play, because playing competitively these days is all about spam. (Transports, Melta guns, Exorcists) There's an old quote I think from Andy Chambers in the forward to one of the Tank Company lists, were he basically states: "40k breaks down when you just take lots of one kind of thing".

Build a list that will be fun to play and play against with the people you game with.

[White_13oy]

I appreciate all the advice guys, I do have another question, on the GW site, it says repentias can be a 20 man squad, but the WD says max of ten, I hope for 20 man personally.

[Dervos]

I appreciate all the advice guys, I do have another question, on the GW site, it says repentias can be a 20 man squad, but the WD says max of ten, I hope for 20 man personally.

Must have been a hold over from the old witch hunters codex, the WD codex is the most up to date book and the max is 10 at the moment for a repentia squad. The troops are the only unit in the book that can take up to 20 models.

[ErictheGreen]

So, I've decided to make the plunge into SoB, But I would like to know what is the feeling of the units, must haves, must avoids, I was going to build an army off the models I liked, but before I go spending $15/$17.25 for three models and then $14 for one model, I figured it'd be best to ask. So I'll make a nice numbered list to start.

1. Can an almost entirely foot army work?
2. I know Repentas have rage and seems like their Act of Faith would have been awesome if acts of faiths lasted until your next turn, but i like the models, but how do they fare?
3. Seraphim, yay or nay
4. Characters, who's the hot tamale and who's the rotten tomatoes?
5. Penatence engines?
6. Anything else to contribute would be fantastic!

Thanks.

This all depends how competitive you want to be. I'll go with a semi-regular tourny goer, wants to not get smashed into a pulp view.

1. no. this is the mech edition, tanks are king. there are few armies that can do effective foot based lists. those that can either have long range shooting on their infantry (guard) or are incredibly survivable/resiliant (blood angel jumpers or deathwing)
2. they're better than they were, but they aren't good. They can now go in vehicles, but you need to hijack a transport from another FOC slot.
3. nay. dominions are the premier choice. scouting double meltagun units in a multimelta armed immolator or quad meltas in a rhino is just fantastic when compared to seraphim, who kill infantry reasonably well, but no better than your core troops.
4. Uriah (with conclave) and celestine. the other HQ choices are just not worth it (barring maybe the other SC priest at an extreme push)
5. no. just no. 2 other decent units in heavy support that far outstrip these liabilities
6. standard competitive build says uriah+conclave, 3-4 10 girl squads with melta or flamer in rhino, 3 dominion squads (double melta at minimum) in a transport and 3 heavy support choices, either exorcist or heavy bolter retributors with a multimelta immolator.

[Jancoran]

You asked: Can an almost entirely foot army work?

Answer: Entirely? It would be very difficult to do it entirely if for no other reason than the benefits of cover. However, Horde sisters are still possible. That's how I won all my tournaments with them. Now, with Uriah and Kyrinov around, it's still possible. It doesn't work quite as well, but it functions similarly to the way it used to. The trouble is the extra feearless wounds really hurt.


You asked: I know Repentas have rage and seems like their Act of Faith would have been awesome if acts of faiths lasted until your next turn, but i like the models, but how do they fare?

Answer: Well. They didn't work at ALL before, now they are the perfect 5 or six chic squad. they get in a borrowed Retributor Rhino turn 1 (take small squads so their rage doesn't mess with them or else reserve them and get them in a rhino when they come on). they are a threat that the enemy would rather ignore, but can't really and yet they are not central to YOUR plans as a Sisters player because of all the meltas. A perfect synergy.

You asked: 3. Seraphim, yay or nay

Answer: Yay. But smaller squads are probably wise. They are NOTHING like their combat capable forebears. They are entirely a shooting unit now. I found this the most discouraging change of the new Dex, but they are, at their job, still terrifyingly effective for their cost.

You asked: Characters, who's the hot tamale and who's the rotten tomatoes?

Answer: St. Celestine has to be the best priced thing in the codex. She's so EASILY worth her points. The tomatoes are probably the Priests. As before, too little for too much, especially given your other options.

You asked: Penatence engines?

Answer: They are no longer a squadron which is interesting. So that made them more survivable but confusing on the rules side. They are good against normal troops. They requirte Rhino cover to stay alive. Entire trio's have been tries and some people love them but I'm not a fan. Still open topped, still AV 11, still INIT 3 and now slower than they used to be. What can ya' do.

You asked: Anything else to contribute would be fantastic!

Answer: Try everything out before you decide what to do. Proxy a few battles. There is more to the new codex than meets the eye. I hated the ideas of the new codex but I cant argue with the results.

[Ixe]

Well I'm going to be controversial and disagree - I find a Penitent Engine to be a great 3rd heavy choice (after 2 Exorcists). I usually leave him in reserve and bring him on from my board edge to help clear out units getting too close to my objectives. He dies every game but he always gets his points back.

In competitive play, no dice. That PE just isn't reliable enough for the points, and it costs enough points that you lose out on something more reliable. Yeah, it's great in a mission where a) you have back-field objectives to defend and b) the PE's reserve rolls are just right so that it shows up after something tries to contest a back-field objective, instead of showing up early and running across the field at a random target, and c) whatever is trying to claim the back field objectives actually fears the PE and won't simply spank it as soon as it arrives. That's too many contingencies to make them a competitive unit. Have one of those things be false (none of which you can actually control) and you've wasted 85 points, and more importantly, a heavy support slot.

Repentia are also great for this tactic, but personally I prefer to borrow a rhino from a normal sisters squad (that I stick on a home objective with a multi melta and meltagun) and send them off to cause annoyance where ever they are needed. Never underestimate a multiple charge of repentia against an IG tank wall. They work as a great counter assault unit to tip the balance in your favour. Also a cheap priest can really help them out.

Also good... if your opponent is as dumb as a rock and doesn't take out the borrowed rhino as a top priority target. If you're facing a skilled opponent, this is a tactic that will fail hard as often as it succeeds. And even then, it only shines against IG stationary parking lots. Most armies aren't those. No offense, but you seem to be a big fan of strategies contingent on having the right opponent or the right mission, and that's simply not how competitive armies are built. Just because it rocks face in one situation doesn't mean you want to have it in ALL situations, especially when it's made of fail most of the time.

I play in a pretty WAAC club and I have quite a few more wins than losses with SoB and I always include Repentia and Penitent engines

I've heard of people dominating what they describe as WAAC environments with footdar. Maybe your strategies work for your meta, but that doesn't make them optimal as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, Without a doubt, Ixe is right. That's the advice I would follow if I was building a list for a tournament.

I would just find a list built along pure Ixeian Principals dull to play, because playing competitively these days is all about spam. (Transports, Melta guns, Exorcists) There's an old quote I think from Andy Chambers in the forward to one of the Tank Company lists, were he basically states: "40k breaks down when you just take lots of one kind of thing".

Yes, a fair point. They did sort of shaft us with a mono-build (if you're being generous) gimpy-dex. If you want to have a reasonable army, you have to play a pretty boring list. And keep in mind, this is a reasonable army, not necessarily an awesome one. You could probably roflstop scrubs with a spamtastic SoB list, but you'll have a tough time against better armies by skilled players. Nobody should play SoB because they're expecting to rule the tabletop, not with the current WD rules, so it's forgivable to take options that are fun and not necessarily optimal.

[duffybear1988]

@ Ixe - you make some good points.

Yes sometimes the Repentia get their borrowed Rhino shot out from under them, but 9 times out of 10 my opponents are more worried about the squads of Dominions in multi melta Immolators, or the 2 Exorcists pounding away at them. I honestly don't think that having a single squad of Repentia dents my ability to handle most situations at all.

As for Penitent Engines, I hate Retributors because they don't do anything SoB can't already, and having 3 Exorcists is boring to play with and against.

I understand that you are the font of all knowledge when it comes to SoB on Warseer, but do understand that your way isn't the only way.

Personally I like a bit of unpredictability in my gaming - if I don't know what's going to happen, then neither does my opponent. Being able to work around that unpredictability and still pull off a win is what makes you feel good at the end of the day (I would rather play like that than spam something until the game is so boring I end up feeling like nothing was achieved).

[Crimson Templar]

I am thinking of getting into Sisters as well and would like some advice on my list of models. I posted it in the Army list section. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ese-SOB-Models

[MuNsTeNbRaU]

I would say the best choice i made with my sisters is droping the phim and a few other upgrades and getting 2 squads of dmoinions with double melta in immolators with twin linke multi melta. Has been really usefull and the phim squad was just shielding the living saint most of the game, i have just got to be better at hiding her.

3 exorcists is not overkill either.

[Jancoran]

Dual Dominion is strong. Even though I dont do it, it's undeniably a good idea.

I do a full 10 lady squad of Dominion, personally. Makes them stand up better in round 3 when they are inevitably charged if they are successful in their positioning. A lot of times they get hit with undersized enemy's and the 10 Sisters allows them to have an outside chance of sticking and gives time for the fearless bubble to come to their aid if needed..with the cavalry, to extricate them and let them do their thing once or twice more.

[Spiney Norman]

1. no. this is the mech edition, tanks are king. there are few armies that can do effective foot based lists. those that can either have long range shooting on their infantry (guard) or are incredibly survivable/resiliant (blood angel jumpers or deathwing)

Yeah, expecting this to change in a couple of months time, if they don't nerf mech spam then really what is the point in bringing out a new edition? It'll be the same as always, every 40k player in the world has a load of transports because mech spam is the only way to play this edition, so let's make mech spam a non-option in the new rules set and force them to go out and buy more troop models.

[Jancoran]

Mech spam is common. But its not the be all end all. Not in my book. I play a FootDar list that is very short range with great results. Here's the most recent battle report: http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/

My Sisters of battle, before the new codex recently, had no Transports and won more tournaments by far than any of my other armies.

So I will concede that there are strong mech builds. Of course there are. But I would submit to you that the soldier heavy lists are not lost. It just takes a paradigm change. =)

Sisters of Battle are inherently strong WHEN mechanized in the new codex so its really tough to say no to the Rhinos or immolators if that's your preference, now. But until this codex cvame along, foot Sisters were awesome for me.

[Ixe]

@Jancoran: Meh. Scrub lists can always beat other scrub lists, and most lists everywhere (including tournaments) are scrub lists. And non-scrub players can usually beat scrubs with just about anything, and (you guessed it) most players everywhere are scrubs. I design lists that can (ideally) stand up to the very best people I've ever played, and nothing with the immobility and fragility of footdar or footsob can do that. Mech is superior for both armies because it negates both fragility and immobility, i.e. the two weaknesses that plague both armies. That's not to say that footsloggers can't win. But they accentuate, rather than negate, the armies' weaknesses and thus you will always have a harder time winning. (I exclude wraithzilla from this because they don't have the fragility that plagues non-wraith footdar, though they can still be a bear to win with against many more mobile builds)