Shooting War Machines

[Mike45]

When shooting a war machine, does the target first have to be in its line of sight? Then it pivots to look straight at its target in the shooting phase. Or can the target be out of line of sight then it pivots in its shooting phase to face his target and shoot?
Also, does pivoting in the movement phase count as moving?

[Capt._Jaelinek]

My understanding is that the war machine gets a free pivot then fires at it's target. p109 of BRB "Shooting with War Machines"

[dwarfboy]

When shooting a war machine, does the target first have to be in its line of sight? Then it pivots to look straight at its target in the shooting phase. Or can the target be out of line of sight then it pivots in its shooting phase to face his target and shoot?
Also, does pivoting in the movement phase count as moving?

Thats how I interpret the rules, "line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point", meaning to both see over troops ect and the arc as well. I would like some clarity on this as well from any rules guru.

[Blkc57]

We've always played it as pivot then draw line of sight. Seems to be what the rules imply by their wording, thus we grant Warmachines a sort of 360 degree LoS.

[Mike45]

When i was looking in the FAQ there was a question that kinda talked about war machines.

"Q: Does pivoting on the spot count as movement for the purposes of
units, other than war machines, with the Move or Fire rule?(p73)
A: Yes."

They didnt specify or correct the guy that war machines were also affected by pivoting in the movement phase. So to me it sounds like there not affected by pivoting.

[Mike45]

Ok i think i found the answer here.

On page 109, in the movement section for war machines. It stats that war machines move using the rules for lone models on page 27. So on page 27 it stats "The one exception is that a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move. It can do so with out penalty and so pivoting does not prevent models from marching or even from shooting later in the turn. Although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on."

So to me that sounds like a yes, you can pivot on the spot with a war machine and still fire. With war machines that use a BS to fire receives a -1 to hit for moving.

[dwarfboy]

but with that reasoning as it "does count as moving" a warmachine couldnt fire surely, as it says under war machines that "all war machines weapons have the move or fire and slow to fire special rules"? I'm not arguing for arguing sake, I would like to be wrong, just want to be clear.

[Iraf]

in the FAQ this comes up.

Page 112 – Cannons, Choosing a Target
Change “[...]pivot in the Movement phase[...]” to “[...]pivot
in the Shooting phase[...]” in the last sentence of the first
paragraph.

It would probably be something you could go by for all war machines. So yes, you can pivot and still shoot your warmachines.

[Hali]

My understanding of how War Machine shooting works is as follows:

First off you have to follow all of the main rules for shooting as described on page 38-45 unless there is a specific exception. These rules cover the entire shooting phase whether it is some archers, a breath weapon or a cannon. Explained briefly the steps to shooting are:

1. Nominate unit to shoot- Pretty simple, pick which unit of yours is going to fire it's weapons as long as it does not fall within certain restrictions(in combat, fleeing etc)

2. Choose a target- Two explicit restrictions here, the target MUST be in range and the target MUST be in line of sight.

3. Roll to hit- Better wording might be "Find out how many hits you get". The rules here explain how to hit something using ballistic skill, obviously shooting that uses templates or another method of determining hits have thier own rules in a different section but the point of this stage is to fire your gun and figure out how many hits you achieve.

4. Roll to wound- obvious and not relevent to discussion

5. Take saving throws- obvious and not relevent to discussion

6. Remove casualties- obvious and not relevent to discussion

Then under the War Machine section there is a single paragraph exlaining what changes apply all war machines are allowed to make to these standard rules(page 109). First it gives them all the "Move or Fire" and "Slow to Fire" special rules which means if you move in the movement phase you cannnot shoot. This includes pivots during the remaining moves as per page 27s "...a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting..." Next it explains how to find line of sight and range for a war machine "Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. its muzzle or crossbar, in the same way as for its range)" this allows us to determine which enemy units are a valid target for the war machine to fire at.

The final point of relavence in this rules paragraph and what I feel is the source of confusion is "before you fire the warmachine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving).". My understanding of this is that you must already have a valid target before you can pivot, so between stages 2 and 3 there is a half step where the war machine turns to face directly the unit it can already see. In my mind this is so that you end up firing your cannon or bolt thrower(or any weapon that fires in a straight line) directly at the opposing unit instead of having it take a 30+ degree turn the moment it exits the barrel and so that then turn by turn your war machine will slowly track the enemy as they move(i.e. if deployed on left flank first turn pointed straight, second turn pointed 0-45 degrees right, third turn pointed 0-45 degrees right of that).

I do not believe it is the intent or spirit of the game to allow war machines 360 degrees of arc and I feel the rules support that, if a crossbowman can't turn to shoot someone behind him how can a cannon or helblaster do so? I believe the pivot rule was included to represent a minor adjustments of aim, not 360 degree sight, you need to plan for enemy movement and try to keep them within your firing lane. I've read numerous battle reports where to avoid a cannon or bolt thrower a flying monster would simply land behind/beside it and my gaming group plays it this way.

All this being said I am the player who instigated the original posters questions. I was playing WoC against his Empire in a battle of the pass mission at a tournament staring directly into 2 cannons, 2 helblasters and a steam tank. I moved a unit of frenzied knights out from a behind a building and set up a flank charge out of line of sight expecting to be safe, when he spun a helblaster a little more than 100 degrees and wanted to shoot them we had a discussion which we couldn't agree on within time restraints and ended up dicing it in my favor. Those five knights in the flank coupled with pandamonium(no character leadership allowed) created an overrun and panic wave that won me the game.(the rest of my army did very little other than get shot and tie up his steam tank which blew up on the last turn) If he had managed to kill even 2 of the 5 knights I doubt they would have swept through like that and he would have gotten the massacre and perhaps even the best general award rather than me.

I would love to find some agreement on this, I would hate to think that I won by misinterpreting the rules.

[dwarfboy]

Thats exactly how I interpret it.

[Tuttivillus]

I do not believe it is the intent or spirit of the game to allow war machines 360 degrees of arc and I feel the rules support that, if a crossbowman can't turn to shoot someone behind him how can a cannon or helblaster do so? I believe the pivot rule was included to represent a minor adjustments of aim, not 360 degree sight, you need to plan for enemy movement and try to keep them within your firing lane. I've read numerous battle reports where to avoid a cannon or bolt thrower a flying monster would simply land behind/beside it and my gaming group plays it this way.

And what for You need those adjustments? For representing minor aiming adjustments ? LOL
War machines are expensive, have quite a chance of exploding themselves (crossbowmen units not), cannot S&S and have one shot per turn which they can miss like every unit. It is in the spirit of the game to allow them to face the target, thus allowing 360 degree line of sight without counting that as moving. If You want to hide Your dragon/knights use terrain features like my opponents does and user their speed.

[Blkc57]

M
I do not believe it is the intent or spirit of the game to allow war machines 360 degrees of arc and I feel the rules support that, if a crossbowman can't turn to shoot someone behind him how can a cannon or helblaster do so? I believe the pivot rule was included to represent a minor adjustments of aim, not 360 degree sight, you need to plan for enemy movement and try to keep them within your firing lane. I've read numerous battle reports where to avoid a cannon or bolt thrower a flying monster would simply land behind/beside it and my gaming group plays it this way.

I would disagree with you on this for the simply reason that the rulebook itself implies that the purpose of the pivot is to bring targets out of LoS into sight. Hence the wording on page 112 for the cannon, which I believe is similar to the rules for the hellblaster.

Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase, the better to bring your target into your line of sight.

Now that was changed to read in the "shooting phase" after the FAQ but the implication is the same: the purpose of the pivot appears to be to move targets into your Line of sight. The problem with the crossbow comparison is that they can't even pivot, so its not really comparing the same thing. The only other shooting units that can pivot are archers that can in fact flip around 360 with a reform and still shoot, albeit ata -1 penalty that war-machines don't have.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

The second post was very clear, as are the rules. War machines do have a free 360 pivot before firing. I've always played that way as has my group and everyone else I know in the Chicago area.

I agree with Tutivillus about points, misfires, lack of marching, no s&s, etc. They aren't going to get too many shots per game, they need to make them count early.

Also remember that most war machines have no base, therefore no facing which grants 360 vision. If you did base them it would be a round base to identify that. You can't rear or flank a war machine either, further supporting the 360 notion.

Enjoy the tactical advantages and think hard about how to deal with them; it's part of the game!

[GodlessM]

Are people really putting all this thought and effort into arguing out a perfectly clear ruling in the rulebook. It's rather simple; pivot, declare, shoot, repeat. That's all.

[Ethriel]

Yes, they are... this is the internet. We don't read rulebooks here.

(Seriously, pg 109. Bottom right-hand paragraph. "Shooting with Warmachines". Why did this ever get past post #2?)

[Tuttivillus]

Godless & Etheriel : Damn You! I was hoping for some Machines are so OP!!! post. You sucked out all the fun!

[Bungor78]

Have you ever seen the military cannon displays. It takes seconds to pivot a canon in reality, why not in fantasy? Which I thought was all about using imagination and expanding on reality. I even think Warmachines should be allowed half movement and fire with a -1 to hit.

[Mostream]

@ GodlessM and Etheriel

how you understand the rules are different to how other people understand the rules. and the only way to make sure that the rules are understood 100% correct is for GW to not only write rules, but also answer FaQ's regurlary, hold official demos, etc, etc.

When the foremost authority on rules do not explain themselves, and the rules are not selfexplanatory (which they are not in this case) then there will be arguing about the correct usage of them.

There is nowhere in the BrB or any FaQ that says that warmachines are exempts to the line of sight requirement for them to be able to shoot at the target in the first place as Hali points out.
In the "shooting with warmachines" on page 109 of the Brb it says "...Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point... -before you fire the warmachine, pivot it to face the chosen target(this does not count as moving)..." nowhere does this indicate that the warmachine has a 360 degree vision. it merely states that you can move the warmachine to point at your chosen target, nothing else.
All units has forward, flank and rear arcs, including warmachines( brb page 5) the tricky part though.. is to figure out what kind of LoS the warmachine has. page 10 of the Brb gives us the rules for LoS and how to check it, but doesnt tell us anything closer about the warmachines.
and being without a base is furtherly tricky since the normal way to determine LoS is to check the base (which a warmachine doesnt have). But. Page 5 of the BrB gives us a hint on how to do it under the 'facing front' title: "its normally easy to tell which direction a model is facing - he'll (it'll?) be aligned squarely with one of his bases edges... Sometimes though, it's not so clear... If you have a single model, such as a monster or a character, where facing is not obvious, make sure that your opponent can tell which way it's facing..." I would suggest that the warmachines chosen point (the part where you check LoS from) is the centre for the models facing, and so this is the centre of its frontal arc. the rest, is easy.

Now. Read up on what i've written, think about it, and get back to me.

[GodlessM]

@ GodlessM and Etheriel

how you understand the rules are different to how other people understand the rules. and the only way to make sure that the rules are understood 100% correct is for GW to not only write rules, but also answer FaQ's regurlary, hold official demos, etc, etc.

When the foremost authority on rules do not explain themselves, and the rules are not selfexplanatory (which they are not in this case) then there will be arguing about the correct usage of them.

There is nowhere in the BrB or any FaQ that says that warmachines are exempts to the line of sight requirement for them to be able to shoot at the target in the first place as Hali points out.
In the "shooting with warmachines" on page 109 of the Brb it says "...Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point... -before you fire the warmachine, pivot it to face the chosen target(this does not count as moving)..." nowhere does this indicate that the warmachine has a 360 degree vision. it merely states that you can move the warmachine to point at your chosen target, nothing else.
All units has forward, flank and rear arcs, including warmachines( brb page 5) the tricky part though.. is to figure out what kind of LoS the warmachine has. page 10 of the Brb gives us the rules for LoS and how to check it, but doesnt tell us anything closer about the warmachines.
and being without a base is furtherly tricky since the normal way to determine LoS is to check the base (which a warmachine doesnt have). But. Page 5 of the BrB gives us a hint on how to do it under the 'facing front' title: "its normally easy to tell which direction a model is facing - he'll (it'll?) be aligned squarely with one of his bases edges... Sometimes though, it's not so clear... If you have a single model, such as a monster or a character, where facing is not obvious, make sure that your opponent can tell which way it's facing..." I would suggest that the warmachines chosen point (the part where you check LoS from) is the centre for the models facing, and so this is the centre of its frontal arc. the rest, is easy.

Now. Read up on what i've written, think about it, and get back to me.

I see hyperbole and more hyperbole and nothing more. Contrary to what you claim, GW have explianed the rules on p109 of the rulebook. Try reading it some time. Contrary to your belief, somebody choosing to randomly lawyer a perfectly clear rule into a twisted meaning doesn't make your 'interpretation' valid, it just makes it wrong. Contrary to your claims, GW doesn't need to write rules, demo them for people, and hold their hand while they write the FAQ, they only need to write one clear ruling, and in this case they have. If the rules are unclear then they need to do an FAQ, if they are not (and here they really are not), then they don't.

As for the LOS thing, that is covered in the LOS and war machine rules. Units are normally restricted to LOS by their front arc. War machines don't have arcs so are not restricted by this. Buildings work the exact same. We all know it, but for some reason some of us don't want to admit it because apparently wasting our lives trolling the internet is cool.

[Hali]

GodlessM, I would have to argue that you are the one trolling here. You are claiming that your interpretation is the only one that is correct and everyone who disagrees with you is a fool dispite there being evidence that you are wrong, and you are not being even remotely polite about it.

The shooting rules about choosing a target on page 39 are very clear and you are ignoring them. And as per page 5 all models have a facing, they do not need a base for this. "A war machine does not have any flanks or rear for the purpose of combat results."(page 110) is what you were refering to, however they still have a front, flank and rear, there are just no bonuses in combat. You are making a giant leap from "before you fire the war machine, pivot to face the chosen target" to "war machines have 360 LoS" and unless you can show me some evidence to support it then you are wrong. You must first choose a target before you can pivot and that target must be within line of sight. This is not rule's lawyering, this is just simply the rules.

To support this claim look at the rules for each individual war machine:

Bolt Throwers(page 111) "To fire a bolt thrower, select a target according to the normal rules for shooting."

Cannons(page 112) "Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight and that is not outside the cannon's maximum range."

Cannons Grapeshot(page 113) "To fire grapeshot, select the target according to the normal rules for shooting."

Fire Throwers(page 114) "Place the teardrop-shaped template with it's narrow end touching the fire thrower barrel and the large end aimed at any target in line of sight"

Stone Throwers(page 114) "To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within the maximum range."

Facing and line of sight is a fundamental part of warhammer rules and tactics, nowhere in the brb does it say that war machines get to ignore this. The burden of proof exists on the war machine rules to prove that they can do something no one else in the game can do, unless you can point out where exactly it says they do not follow the same rules as everyone else they use the normal shooting rules which include choosing a target within range and line of sight.