Shooting War Machines

[HurrDurr]

The arcs are divided into 4 90 degree zones from the centre of the unit, just as with other models. If its not obvious which is the frontal arc you haveto tell your opponent. (BrB:5)

This is false, line of sight is drawn from the corners of bases, and in a unit from the corners of the bases at the "corners of the unit." I did a double take after reading that, try drawing a rectangle in paint representing a 11 wide cavalry formation, drawing line of sight from the center model makes for some pretty weird situations. So because a cannon doesn't come with a base, and there is no way of telling what size base it would be on (which would make a huge difference in drawing line of sight) then we have to assume there's no........ base-is for this discussion AWWWW yeah "sunglasses"

gggggggg... \ /
...cccccccccCccccccccc

g= goblins
c= cav
C= center of the unit

If you measure from the center, the goblins are not in line of sight.

There was absolutely no reason to illustrate all this because the rules show where to measure from, I just thought a unit of blind knights looked funny.

Edit: diagram fail x 4

[HurrDurr]

Hope this isn't spam, is it still an option to add a voting poll to this thread? I'm curious how many people WANT warmachines to have 360 degree line of sight and how many want it to have some resemblance of line of sight, regardless of what the rules themselves say or in this case fail at saying. Purely an opinion based vote.

[LiddellHart]

Maybe we can have a poll in warhammer general? Because this doesn't have anything to do with the actual rules.
(I am not fond of "the voice of the people")

[HurrDurr]

Maybe we can have a poll in warhammer general? Because this doesn't have anything to do with the actual rules.
(I am not fond of "the voice of the people")

My concern is 99% of people have no doubt been using it with 360 degree line of sight for a very long time, and they really don't seem so over the top in their current state. If anything needed a change it would probably be the STR or multiple wounds or the way it lands it's shot, not adding more weird rules/mechanics to memorize. It's also a question that I think most of us have never seen before(at least I haven't and I lurk a lot). I've seen many games in many forms where something unintended is happening, and in truth was a great characteristic to begin with and left the game in better condition than without the "accident."


In a completely different video game I once played, your class could debuff an opponent making them more vulnerable to a single attack, because of latency issues and the ability to use two attacks very quickly after the other both would benefit from the debuff, this is still in the game to this day years later. It was an accidental improvement.

[Capt._Jaelinek]

I think this whole issue still boils down to: What is in a war machines line of sight?

I looked at all the war machine rules and if 360 LoS is allowed there are some strange issues.

For example, bolt throwers select a target per normal shooting. We have to define frontal arc since it is not defined in the BRB for war machines. Logic would infer that this would be 90 from the tip of the bolt.

Canons select a point for the canon to land within LoS, which is taken from the barrel. Then the model pivots and fires. I disagree that this is a simultaneous action. You either check LoS or pivot first. My interpretation is check LoS first.

But cannons can fire grape shot, which follow normal shooting rules. Which now needs a defined forward arc and must select a target within that arc before firing. This seems a contradiction to the previous cannon rules unless we infer that the target must be in the forward arc too.

Flame thrower place the template at the barrel and may rotate the template in any direction within LoS. As friendly models cannot be targeted, this would imply that the template cannot fire behind itself. How does this work with the free pivot? It would appear that LoS is effectively 180 for this machine and you pivot after placing the template to straighten the model. Thereby altering LoS for next turn.

Stone throwers must place the small Blast template completely within LoS. I don't even know where that would originate from on the model. Firing indirectly allows the blast template to be Placed anywhere and may ignore LoS. But it does say to follow the other rules for shooting.

GW does need to FAQ this rule. If war machines pivot during the movement phase this would certainly mean they have 360 LoS, but that would count as moving. So they pivoting happens inthe shooting phase to avoid the whole slow to fire issue. However, they could say pivot the model, select a target and then fire. But they do not. They say select a target, pivot the model then fire.

It's really clear to me that target selection precedes pivoting. Thus, what can be seen needs to be defined for each machine as they appear to be different.

[CM2728]

I'd like to add my two cents,

In the begnning of this thread, Mike 45 stated that warmachine movement was very similar to that of lone characters.

So here we are arguing that a Lone character can pivot on the spot and THEN declare a charge against a model/unit that was outside of of his 'front arc' (and he does have a front arc)

However, we are also saying that a warmachine can not pivot and shoot at something that is outside of its 'front arc' even though it doesn't have a base.

In short it is being argued that Lone characters have a 360 LOS but warmachines don't...personally I find that a double standard.

[Mostream]

I'd like to add my two cents,

In the begnning of this thread, Mike 45 stated that warmachine movement was very similar to that of lone characters.

So here we are arguing that a Lone character can pivot on the spot and THEN declare a charge against a model/unit that was outside of of his 'front arc' (and he does have a front arc)

However, we are also saying that a warmachine can not pivot and shoot at something that is outside of its 'front arc' even though it doesn't have a base.

In short it is being argued that Lone characters have a 360 LOS but warmachines don't...personally I find that a double standard.

Very good in recapitulating parts of the discussion that are inaccurate.

[LiddellHart]

I'd like to add my two cents,

In the begnning of this thread, Mike 45 stated that warmachine movement was very similar to that of lone characters.

So here we are arguing that a Lone character can pivot on the spot and THEN declare a charge against a model/unit that was outside of of his 'front arc' (and he does have a front arc)

However, we are also saying that a warmachine can not pivot and shoot at something that is outside of its 'front arc' even though it doesn't have a base.

In short it is being argued that Lone characters have a 360 LOS but warmachines don't...personally I find that a double standard.

What thread have you been reading?

[Asensur]

First, my apologies if my english is not very accurate. It is hard to find a correct translation between spanish and english.

To have a proper answer to this let's see every warmachine rules, and also general rules.

Issue 1. Line of Sight and Front Arc

when reading page 5 and 10 of the Rulebook, it is clear that front and line of sight are separate and independent rules.

When declaring a charge, it specifies that you need LoS and front arc.

When using a spell, target must be at the front arc but not in LoS, except in this cases:
-Magic missiles need LoS.
-Augments and Hex doesn't need front arc
-Magic vortexes doesn't need a target, but they use the sorcerer's front arc.

These examples show us clearly that LoS and Front Arc are separate rules.

Issue 2. Shooting section and its relationship with Warmachines

SHOOTING section

1. It specifies clearly that warmachines use their own chapter (pag 108) at shooting. 3rd sentence implies knowledge of normal shooting attacks before trying to read warmachines section, nothing else.

2.On page 39, warmachines appear again, but the rulebook points again to read Warmachines section on page 108.

What they tell us is: Warmachines don't use normal Shooting section, but their own. Pretty clear.

Issue 3. How do warmachines shoot

When shooting a warmachine, measures will be done from the edge of the cannon or any apropiate point (The Warmachine, page 109)

Warmachines can move as if they were individual models. Let's see how individual models move (page 27):
-An individual model can rotate in movement's phase freely and as many times as it wishes, but as last sentence says, it will count as movement when shooting.

Every warmachine has the rules Move or Shoot and Slow Shooting. So, if the warmachine rotates in the movement phase it can't shoot, as specified before.

Every Warmachine must rotate to face the chosen target before shooting (pag 109). Remember that this rotation doesn't count as movement. So, the correct order is: choose target, rotate to face, shoot.

Now let's go to each Warmachine:

BOLT THROWERS

To shoot a Bolt thrower, select a target within the normal rules of Shooting. These rules are:
-Line of sight and front arc.
-Target within max distance
-Target not engaged in combat

Once we have selected a target within these restrictions, we rotate the warmachine to face the target, and we shoot.

CANNON

Choose a target within Line of Sight and within maximum distance. The target can be a point on the ground and not an unit, but the possibilities of hitting a friendly or engaged unit must not be encountered. Because it doesn't specifie it, front arc is not needed.

Once we selected the point, we rotate the Warmachine and make the shoot.

CANNON (shrapnel)

To shoot a Cannon with shrapnel, select a target within the normal rules of Shooting. These rules are:
-Line of sight and front arc.
-Target within max distance
-Target not engaged in combat

Once we have selected a target within these restrictions, we rotate the warmachine to face the target, and we shoot.

FLAMETHROWER

This one is tricky and it is not well explained. First we select a target within Line of sight, then we rotate the Warmachine to face the target, and shoot as explained in the Flamethrower section on page 114.

CATAPULT (DIRECT SHOOT)

We need to choose a target within LoS and not engaged in combat, also remember minimum and maximum distance. We rotate the Warmachine to face the target and we make the shoot as explained.

CATAPULT (INDIRECT SHOOT)

Same as before, but it doesn't require LoS.



So, conclusions:

1. Line of Sight and Front Arc are separate rules

2. Warmachine doesn't use normal shooting rules unless otherwise noted.

3. The order of shooting a warmachine is: choose target, rotate freely, shoot.

4. Bolt throwers and a Cannon using shrapnel must select a target withing normal Shooting rules 8front arc, engaged units etc).

5. The Cannon can't select a target if the shot could hit a friendly unit or an engaged one (This implies every unit within 20 UM and the chosen point). Catapults can't place the template if it would hit a friendly or engaged unit with a "Hit!" result in the scatter dice. Flamethrowers can accidently hit friendly or engaged units.

6. Of course, all warmachines need Line of sight (except a Catapult with indirect shoot).

[LiddellHart]

I couldn't have said it better, not even on the previous page...

Well, I am glad we agree mate.

[Efrovius]

Well done, Asensur. I am sure someone will, but I can't see how to read the rules any different (ly?)

[Capt._Jaelinek]

This is a good summary. But, we still don't have a written definition for war machine front arcs or how they choose targets. I couldnt find any page numbers in the rule book that defined these items.

[Asensur]

This is a good summary. But, we still don't have a written definition for war machine front arcs or how they choose targets. I couldnt find any page numbers in the rule book that defined these items.

Page 109, Warmachines.

It explains that measures are made for any suitable point of the warmachine: the muzzle of the cannon, the bolt of a bolt thrower, etc.

You can determine their front arc easily from those points.

also, rules for choosing targets which each warmachine (because each warmachine works differently) are explained in each warmachine's rules. I posted a summary on a previous post, but i will post a more explicit one here.

BOLT THROWERS
- Does it need front arc? Yes
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? Yes
- Does the target need to be at a certain distance? Yes, maximum distance or less
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? Never!

CANNONS
- Does it need front arc? No
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? No, it can be a point in the ground
- Does the target need to be at a certain distance? Yes, maximum distance or less
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? Never!

CANNONS (GRAPESHOTS)
- Does it need front arc? Yes
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? Yes
- Does the target need to be at a certain distance? Yes, maximum distance or less
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? Never!

FLAMETHROWERS
- Does it need front arc? No
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? Yes
- Does the target need to be at a certain distance? No, not any distance needed
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? Only accidently

CATAPULTS
- Does it need front arc? No
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? No, it can be a point in the ground
- Does the target need to be at a certain distance? Yes, between mimimum and maximum distance
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? The template must not be placed over these units, but it can hit them if the template scatters.

CATAPULTS (INDIRECT SHOT)
- Does it need front arc? No
- Does it need Line of Sight? No
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? No, it can be a point in the ground
- Does the target need to be at a certain distance? Yes, between mimimum and maximum distance
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? The template must not be placed over these units, but it can hit them if the template scatters.

Rules are pretty clear, take a read to my previous post.

Front Arc and LoS are not related. Warmachines shooting is not related with Normal Shooting, except if the warmachine says so. Also, each warmachine selects a valid target and shoots differently.

[Luuky19]

FLAMETHROWERS
- Does it need front arc? No
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? Yes
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? Yes

- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? Yes

this part is clearly wrong. on page 39. it stats

Some war machine weapons, particularly those that use templates, can accidentally hit friends whilst aiming at the enemy. The key word heie is accidentally - you cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit.See page 108 for more detailse on war machines.

this clearly thats that you cannot shoot into an enemy with a flammetrower as paragraph 1 states

that a 2 unites engaged in close combat should not be viewed as 2 separate blocks of troops, it's actually a swirling melee where no one stays still long enough to offer a safe shot!

changing this:

FLAMETHROWERS
- Does it need front arc? No
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? Yes
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? Yes

to:

FLAMETHROWERS
- Does it need front arc? yes (you can just pivot it to the target if it is not in there yet.)
- Does it need Line of Sight? Yes
- Does it need an enemy unit as a target? Yes
- Can it hit friendly or engaged units? NO

[N1AK]

@ Tuttivillus

this is FaQ'ed to:

Page 112 – Cannons, Choosing a Target
Change “[...]pivot in the Movement phase[...]” to “[...]pivot
in the Shooting phase[...]” in the last sentence of the first
paragraph.

So the rule is "Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Shooting phase, the better to bring your target into your line of sight."

I'm afraid I agree with the 360 degree warmachine shooting group. The Warmachine is allowed to pivot in the movement phase to bring a target into its LOS. If the target has to be in the LOS to begin with then this rule would be entirely redundant. You seem to be implying that because you could not shoot at the target before rotating it cannot therefore be a target; personally I see no need for that, the target will be in LOS when it fires which is all I believe is required.

What I would like to add is that you've argued your case politely and well. The issue certainly isn't as clear cut as some of those arguing against you are claiming and some of the comments have been rude and unnecessary. Thank you for not stooping to that level.

[Asensur]

Of course, you can't choose an engaged or friendly unit as a target as all warmachines, but the template can fail and hit a friendly or an engaged unit, as with catapults

Also, flamethrowers don't use front arc as warmachines use THEIR OWN rules for shooting.

And the order of shooting a warmachine is: select a valid target, turn the warmachine to face the valid target, shoot.

So, bolt throwers and grapple shots can't select an unit if it is outside their front arc BEFORE turning the warmachine. Remember that if a warmachine turns at the Movement phase it can't shoot, because it counts as moving due to individual models' rules. The turning in the shooting phase is free and without penalties, but it has to be made AFTER choosing a valid target.

Watch my first post for explanations.

[N1AK]

And the order of shooting a warmachine is: select a valid target, turn the warmachine to face the valid target, shoot.

I don't think I agree with this interpretation of the rules. The rule allowing warmachines to turn in the shooting phase doesn't specify at what stage it can rotate. It does say that it can bring the target into LOS; there is no reason for it to say that if it can't select a 'target' that wasn't in LOS to begin with.

The interpretation seems to be based on the fact that the rules allowing rotating to bring a target into LOS use the word target. The can't turn camp are saying that the target must be in a valid position (LOS) to be shot before rotation which I see no rules requirement for. That is a secondary issue though because the rotation rule would be meaningless if warmachines couldn't target units that weren't in LOS at the beginning of the shooting phase.

[Asensur]

I don't think I agree with this interpretation of the rules. The rule allowing warmachines to turn in the shooting phase doesn't specify at what stage it can rotate. It does say that it can bring the target into LOS; there is no reason for it to say that if it can't select a 'target' that wasn't in LOS to begin with.

The interpretation seems to be based on the fact that the rules allowing rotating to bring a target into LOS use the word target. The can't turn camp are saying that the target must be in a valid position (LOS) to be shot before rotation which I see no rules requirement for. That is a secondary issue though because the rotation rule would be meaningless if warmachines couldn't target units that weren't in LOS at the beginning of the shooting phase.

Page 109 SHOOTING WIH WARMACHINES

"-before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)"

chosen: past verb
pivot: present verb

So, pivot comes AFTER choose.

Also, pivot comes BEFORE firing as the sentence says.

If you don't have chosen a target, you can't face a non-existent target

[Luuky19]

Of course, you can't choose an engaged or friendly unit as a target as all warmachines, but the template can fail and hit a friendly or an engaged unit, as with catapults

Also, flamethrowers don't use front arc as warmachines use THEIR OWN rules for shooting.

And the order of shooting a warmachine is: select a valid target, turn the warmachine to face the valid target, shoot.

So, bolt throwers and grapple shots can't select an unit if it is outside their front arc BEFORE turning the warmachine. Remember that if a warmachine turns at the Movement phase it can't shoot, because it counts as moving due to individual models' rules. The turning in the shooting phase is free and without penalties, but it has to be made AFTER choosing a valid target.

Watch my first post for explanations.

if its true a warmachine like flamethrower and cannons than the discussion about 360 shoot possibility ends there. because your LoS = 360 degrees meaning it does not mater witch way you do it (pivot first choose later, choose first pivot later) you have 360 degrees on valid targets. as long as you only pivot in the shooting phase or else it counts as moving.
as for the part of being LoS being 360 degrees thats explained in the LoS section of the BRB.

as for the flamethrower. its just best to agree apown it with your enemy before you make the your list/start your match because there are grounds for a yes and a no. until this is FAQed there is no indefinite answer except that GW needs to learn that they need to make rule a little more clear from the start. me by a table like with magic but then for war machines. or a forum of there own, NOW THAT WOULD BE NICE.

summery reasons:
no: its a calculable risk like with a cannonball.
yes: its the accidental factor of a templed shot like a catapult.

I'm more some to say no on shooting into the close combat bye mistake like this. seeing the shot resembles the cannonball more than the catapult. but thats why they invented the coin flip.

[Mostream]

if its true a warmachine like flamethrower and cannons than the discussion about 360 shoot possibility ends there. because your LoS = 360 degrees meaning it does not mater witch way you do it (pivot first choose later, choose first pivot later) you have 360 degrees on valid targets. as long as you only pivot in the shooting phase or else it counts as moving.
as for the part of being LoS being 360 degrees thats explained in the LoS section of the BRB.

when arguing rules I think the polite thing to do is to actually quote the text and give your interpretation of it and not just refer to the BRB in general and vague terms saying that it is written the way you interpret it.

In your above statement i would like you to do exactly this because i've read the section quite a few times on page 10, 109 and 112 in relation to this discussion and IMO there's no rules that entitle either the cannon or any other WM a 360 LOS.

on Page 10 the LOS rules section 2 clearly states that "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. thehead) torso, arms or legs) of the target."

On page 109 the BRB it is written that "Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. its muzzle or crossbar, in the same way as for its range)"

Without going into a lengthy debate about how some models have their eyes on the side of their head or the heads are tilted or that no warmachines has eyes or how eyes actually work, It is my interpretation that the point of LOS, if not specifically defined otherwhise, gives a model a 180 LOS in the same way a normal human being can use his or hers. straight ahead with peripheral vision to the sides but nothing further back than that.

I'm aware of counter-arguements that LOS is taken from the crossbar, mortars barrel, etc and that since it doesn't have a specific direction like the muzzle of a cannon or the tip of a bolt it gets 360 LOS. to these I will merely say that every model has a facing per the rules on page 5 " If you have a single model, such as a monster or character, whose facing is not obvios, make sure that your opponent can tell which way it's facing." and that this is the point with which you look from with your set of imagined eyes.

So, in summary: LOS is not automatically 360. You use the chosen point of the model to determine it and since the LOS rule is poorly written I believe that RAI is that you use the models point of LOS and it's facing to determine what you can see, finally that you cannot see to your sides nor your rear like normal eyes cannot giving your models a maximum LOS of 180.