They can do it any way they want though, which - although it makes it rather pointless from a plot point of view - allows players to have Necrons doing basically whatever they want them to do.
Want C'tan-serving Necrons?* Great. They think the best way of restoring the Dynasties is to free the C'tan.
Want Necrons who operate an artisan bakery, making cupcakes for all their neighbours? Great. They think they can bribe their way back to power with delightfully decorated cakes.
*Yes
I made a Genestealer Cult! --- 2nd edition Tyranid army!
Mat Ward Fact #27- His super power is invulnerability, his only weakness being an allergy to Halflings.
Guild up and join the Mat Ward Defence League!
I'm going to go out on a limb and say Necrons have always been a pointless faction. They have no unique niche in the lore of the game. The old Necrons tried to fill the role of mysterious, unknowable, lovecraftian entities when we already had two armies that fit that niche. Chaos is the home of many unfathomable extra-dimensional monsters and Tyranids are an unfathomable alien intelligence that works on a level we can't comprehend. Old Necrons didn't add anything new. They were just a roboticc flavor of a trope we already had. New Necrons suffer a similar fate but now this time they fill the same niche as the Eldar. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the only time the Necrons had their own niche at all was way back in the day when the models were first released and we literally knew nothing about them. They did used to be a total enigma. I wasn't even playing the game at that point and I can respect that. In my opinion, Necrons should either go the way of the Squats or fade away into obscurity. They add almost nothing to the setting at large except for the glimpses into the pre-history of the 40k universe. It is debatable whether or not those glimpses were ever needed either. This is also coming from a former Necron player back in 3rd edition as well. I look back at the time I quite loved the Necrons and cringe.
Kind of a downer statement to make, but its not like we are treading new ground here. This is just yet another Oldcrons vs Newcrons thread in which we will say the same old things, make the same old arguments and inevitably go nowhere until the next thread pops up and it all happens again. I give it a few more months before this horse is well and thoroughly beaten to death.
Something LordLucan didn't emphasise quite enough for my tastes: the Necrons are not static or trapped in their state. We've got degrading Necrons. As their programmes erode, whilst thousands of them might just turn to mindless reptitive things, some, perhaps one in a billion at the Warrior level, might regain sentience. One in a billion might break out from the 'conquer the galaxy' desire. Given the numbers implied in both 'dexes, that leaves a massive amount of opportunity for specialisation.
Similarly, the Sarkoni Emperor. The Conptek defences and stability aren't inviolable or static. The Necrons might have thought they're trapped in eternal servitude, but... with strange aeons...
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"Never! The bandwagon will leave without us!"- Sojourner
"Xisor's lucky he didn't get bundled to the ground and shot in the head six times."- Charax
"Poor old Ahriman and his many failed attempts to get a library card."- Lord Damocles
http://xisor.wordpress.com
*Stare*
I was referring to, what are the mechanical undead space Egyptians going to once they've conquered the galaxy? Let's say the Necrons conquer the galaxy, shall we? The Imperium is gone, humanity scattered about and enslaved. Orks, Astartes, Tyranids, all gone. So now they're controlling these worlds... they're going to start building Necrontyr citiies for their growing population, right? Oh wait... well surely now we enjoy the finer things in life, like sampling wines, seeing the sights, trying out the foodstuffs of various worlds we've subjugated? Oh wait, they can't... :P
The ONLY reason the Necrons have to be active - outside of the aforementioned forced execution of the Silent King's final command - is an attempt to return to organic form, or something similar. Exactly why they can't simply stay in their Tombworlds and engage in a Matrix-esque artificial world network shared between their minds, I don't know, outside of the fact that wouldn't really make them ideal suvjects for a wargame.
Try reading my comment next time.
Last edited by Rogue Star; 26-04-2012 at 13:56.
I think the fact that they're trying to rebuild their empire, while lacking anything like a real civilization, is part of what makes them sort of tragically compelling. They're still trying to wrap their heads around the concept of eternity. The vast majority of their kin are mindless drones, and many of those that have retained a personality have been driven mad by the ravages of time. Restoring something like their former glory, even if it's just a hollow mockery, at least gives them something to do to stave off the creeping madness of eternity - even if that action is in itself sort of insane.
Those that fail will become Destroyers or the old-school nihilistic death-focused Necron, which is probably sort of horrifying for the 'sane' Necrons who still remember being mortal. It's probably a lot like how we find the idea of becoming a serial killer horrifying - but the Necron realize that over the course of their eternal locked-in-metal-body lives, the chance they could slip and go mad is much higher.
In addition, the Necron likely need to hold power so they can control the C'tan shards. Given a long enough time scale, they will eventually reunite and take their vengeance on their old servants. A strong empire that works to prevent this, or has the power to fight back, will be necessary to prevent the reckoning. Compared to the eventual punishment of vengeful gods, becoming an insane death-seeking nihilist probably seems like a good idea.
The work to rebuild the dynasties is the struggle of creating something that can stand against the terrible permemance of time. It's crazy if you think about it, and a lot of the Lords who try to create it are similarly mad - but it's better than the alternative.
Draigo's Razor: When presented with multiple explanations for a new piece of 40K content, the most likely answer is the one intentionally designed to make you, personally, angry.
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Tales of the Seferim Sector: an ongoing series of narrative battle reports.
Kommanda Shinbash's Misfits - 1500 pt Orks
The problem of conquering the galaxy is the same for all races\factions. Once you've conquered the galaxy what next? For example humanity, if the great crusade had succeded and the IoM had conqured the galaxy, in the process wiping out all xenos\enemies and bringing "enlightenment" and "civilization" to their worlds what next? I think with all races if they "won" the next step would be well lets conquer other galaxies and then the universe, then other dimensions but the concept of conquering "everything" is ultimately flawed because there is no "next". This is not a unique problem for the Necrons, it's a problem for everyone, the exception maybe the nids as once they have eaten everything they will die of starvation eventually and then there will just be nothing.
As they say, it's not the destination thats important, it's the journey.
This is something I believe certain sects are attempting - I seem to recall a box-out in the Codex of a group looking to reverse biotransferrence.
The Necrons, as currently written, have a psychological need to prove their superiority. It's not just "We want to take over the galaxy" - it's "We want to take over the galaxy and be recognized as the superior beings we are." This often includes quirks like accepting tribute in lieu of destruction and humiliating/maiming enemies instead of finishing them off. They don't want the galaxy destroyed, they want the galaxy under their rule. Obviously anything that stands in the way of that needs to be removed, and anything that can't be turned into a favorable situation for the Necrons needs destroyed.Exactly why they can't simply stay in their Tombworlds and engage in a Matrix-esque artificial world network shared between their minds, I don't know, outside of the fact that wouldn't really make them ideal suvjects for a wargame.
That's why they don't just lock themselves into a Matrix of sorts - there's no way in that scenario for them to prove to the other races how superior they are. Honestly, they make me think a bit of the Riddler, especially from the Arkham games - a compulsive, unending need to prove how much better they are than their foes.
This is a departure from Codex: C'tan we had prior to Codex: Necron Dynasties, but the overall concept is similar:
The C'tan sought to turn the galaxy's inhabitants into livestock to feed their hunger.
The Necrons seek to turn the galaxy's inhabitants into subjects to feed their ego.
In addition to their ego, the Necron need to think very long term. Matrix-ing themselves (even if that's an ability they have, which I doubt) would work great until the Tomb World you're in gets swallowed by the system's dying sun, or an Eldar / Human / whatever mortal race comes after them finds and bulldozes the place.
The great sleep worked in that the Eldar have been felled by time, but the Necron still need to control the physical galaxy to maintain themselves - eep to long, and you might never wake up.
Draigo's Razor: When presented with multiple explanations for a new piece of 40K content, the most likely answer is the one intentionally designed to make you, personally, angry.
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Tales of the Seferim Sector: an ongoing series of narrative battle reports.
Kommanda Shinbash's Misfits - 1500 pt Orks
I'm still of the opinion the Necrons are Space Dwarfs.
Old, Grumpy, Hate Elves, Don't Do Magic, High Tech Everything, Live Underground, Big Axes and Guns, Honor Bound, Hierarchical, Stubborn, Slightly Insane, Dying (Dead) Race, Dead Gods, Hate Elves, Fancy Armor, Nigh Immune to Injury (Drunk), Hold Grudges, ...
I can see some Tomb Kings in there, but they're Dwarfs.
Look a Gun with an Axe on it.
Last edited by Col. Tartleton; 26-04-2012 at 22:06.
Well that was more polite than the first time, but again was not what I said, but I will attempt to explain myself better.
I'm not saying, the Necrons don't need resources. They clearly do. They've slept away the best part of at least sixty million years. They need to fire up the boiler, sweep the porch, get rid of that nasty thing (other sentient races) growing behind the fridge...
What I'm asking is, why bother waking up at all? In the terms of, steadily expanding mini-empires of the dynasties? The only logical reason the Necrons have to be active, outside of a pre-conditioned final command by their exiled King, is to return to biological physicality. They would have an easier time of doing this I think, of sending out small raiding forces, using the Webway they have access to now, to scoop up samples across the galaxy, before fading, leaving no trace of the attackers - which is exactly what they used to do!
What they're currently doing however, is waking up on the dead Tomb Worlds they went into hibernation on - why if they can create sub-dimensions to hide in (Deathmarks, Crypteks, Flayed Ones) they'd settle for just being underground I don't know - clearing them of any interlopers, before moving on to the next nearest world, eradicating or subjugating it depending on mechanical whimsy, using Canoptek units to convert worlds into more tombs, before repeating until they are stopped or they've (re)conquered the galaxy.
Mankind expanded, to use a familiar example, because of curiosity, burgeoning population pressure, and a pro-active stance towards survival. Humans have soul, they're naturally curious of the unknown. The Necrons, are entirely based on logic. They have no desire travel beyond their borders. The only Necrons left with personality enough to be considered beings, are the hierarchy of Lords, from the debateable Lych-guard and upwards. That's a really tiny handful of individuals. It's like the population of the United Kingdom feeling the need to colonise the solar system for breathing space, something the Necrons no longer require. And if the Necrons wanted to ensure their survival, they could easily retreat to the aforementioned sub-dimensions they can create, and probably save, or at least stave off madness by engaging in an artificial recreation of a planet-wide simulation network, ala The Matrix. Outside of the forced upon reason of the Silent King, it's very hard for me to connect to a Necron Character when, post-successful game of WH40K, I see him humourlessly listing this as Nihilakh Dynasty planet 419, before moving on to the next.
That's... actually quite fitting. Their Tomb Worlds are also like the Karaks, in that they are divided and many are in disrepair and are always under siege by rival races that want access to their treasures.
Also, you forgot one; they hate greenskins too (especially Imotekh)
Aesthetically, they look tomb king like, but have a dwarven thematic archtype. I like it.
I think you're treating the Necron entirely too much like robots. Some degraded Necron are more like robots, sure, but to say 'Necron are based on logic' is entirely ignoring the wide degree of madness they exhibit in the new dex.
I also don't think they would have Matrix technology. When would they have developed it? Pre-transference there would be no need, and it's not like the C'tan would want their servants wasting time in cyberspace. Even if they could retain sentience outside their bodies, they couldn't stay that way forever before entropy destroys the technology that hosts them. They'd need to be awake and defending what's theirs. Also, Necron who stay in their Tombs and hide underground would probably be similar to someone with depression who won't leave their basement. It's a concept that could apply to some Necron, but with eternity staring them down I'm pretty sure they would eventually get cabin fever (or just snap).
Robotic Necron certainly exist, but I think you're assigning that trait to all of them when it doesn't necessarily apply. Those that are sentient are still aware of how everything they've ever built and everyone they've ever known (save a couple jerks you never liked, of COURSE they would survive the eons) has been dead for millions of years, and they'll keep living despite that. What options do they have, besides start all over again or go crazy?
Basically, if you can't get behind a humorless robot mechanically renaming planets, instead imagine him cackling maniacally and vowing to terraform the planet into a giant likeness of his long-dead lover.
Last edited by Theocracity; 27-04-2012 at 14:54.
Draigo's Razor: When presented with multiple explanations for a new piece of 40K content, the most likely answer is the one intentionally designed to make you, personally, angry.
/////
Tales of the Seferim Sector: an ongoing series of narrative battle reports.
Kommanda Shinbash's Misfits - 1500 pt Orks
Trying to motivate myself behind them is part of the reason for this thread, but sadly I can't get behind either of those concepts, simply because if I wanted slightly zany hijinks, I'd turn to Orks, who I could see conquering a moon purely to shape it into the likeness of their gods; and then smashing it into the world it orbits. :P I can even get behind such things with the Dark Eldar, who live very much in the now, refusing to look at their bleak past for all they've lost, or to confront their equally bleak future, and would instead rather vitrify a world with the glass-plague, before tugging it back through the webway so a Dark Eldar princeling can to present the glass-world with it's living sculptures to his erstwhile 'love'.
The Necrons however, are not one of these such races.
Fair enough, to clarify, I'm not saying the Necrons don't need resources to conquer the galaxy.
As machines, outside of their goals, do they need resources? If we were to put a basic Necron warrior in a room, would it ever require nourishment, sunlight, an external energy source, stimulation? All the background points to it would just stand there, until the end of time or destruction. So no, they don't need resources... until they're told to conquer the galaxy.![]()
Last edited by Rogue Star; 27-04-2012 at 15:55.
Well, the moon-carving is just an idea that popped into my head as I was writing that post. And it doesn't have to be artistic or whimsical; it could be that he remembers loving that person but has lost the ability to feel anything, so is doing it in the hopes that it will rekindle some sort of sensation (and killing millions in the process). More tragic that way.Trying to motivate myself behind them is part of the reason for this thread, but sadly I can't get behind either of those concepts, simply because if I wanted slightly zany hijinks, I'd turn to Orks, who I could see conquering a moon purely to shape it into the likeness of their gods; and then smashing it into the world it orbits. :P I can even get behind such things with the Dark Eldar, who live very much in the now, refusing to look at their bleak past for all they've lost, or to confront their equally bleak future, and would instead rather vitrify a world with the glass-plague, before tugging it back through the webway so a Dark Eldar princeling can to present the glass-world with it's living sculptures to his erstwhile 'love'.
The Necrons however, are not one of these such races.
Othe brainstormed motivations:
-Terrified of the punishment of the reunited C'tan, the Overlord is intent on finding C'tan shards and securing them. He does this by scouring each world clean and erecting monuments of his old dynasty, as a sign that the world is clear of C'tan.
-As above, but has given up hope of securing the shards. He knows they will eventually reunite and feels that he is doing the galaxy a favor by exterminating life, as the embrace of death is preferable to the wrath of angry gods.
-As you say, bio transference is a goal. But to do so successfully would require an ample supply of mortal test subjects, as well as a functioning civilization to rule over once you've successfully been refleshed. You don't want to give up your immortality as a peasant; you'd want to do it when you're in a position to enjoy it!
-Straight-up immortal selfishness. You live forever, and you are determined to make the most of your time to learn all there is to learn, do everything that's awesome, and make the galaxy dance for your enjoyment - and you have horribly powerful technology and hordes of undead servants to help you accomplish it. Out of the way, fleshlings! I got stuff to do!
Draigo's Razor: When presented with multiple explanations for a new piece of 40K content, the most likely answer is the one intentionally designed to make you, personally, angry.
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Tales of the Seferim Sector: an ongoing series of narrative battle reports.
Kommanda Shinbash's Misfits - 1500 pt Orks
I would certainly think so. Possibly not a lot, but some.
I'm not sure what background your reading. Stasis Tombs require upkeep and maintenance, and the new fluff indicates that sometimes their functions simply wear out. I've certainly always assumed that necron bodies had some sort of power source; super science batteries that need recharged, fusion reactors the size of soda cans, something and that they would need to be refueled at some point. They might be able to run for thousands or even millions of years without recharging, but eventually. In fact, the very concept of phase out makes plausible that necron bodies are actually powered remotely by energy beamed through sub-space or something from the tomb's core reactor, since each necron has (had) to maintain some sort of connection to the stasis tomb anyway. In the new book they even emphasize that some necron unit's primary duty is to conduct repairs when things break down. So I don't know where your getting the idea that they don't need anything. It is possible that I have missed something though. Can you cite any sources?If we were to put a basic Necron warrior in a room, would it ever require ....an external energy source...? All the background points to it would just stand there, until the end of time or destruction.
In fact, the very fact that they had to be put to sleep in "stasis" tombs indicates that no, they can't be simply ordered to stand still for 60 million years, they needed to be mothballed in order to minimize resource consumption.
A basic necron warrior from the new codex? No. The new book choose to make explicit that the basic necrons are mindless automatons. Any still sapient, conscious, self-aware necron (which, in the old book, is how I envisioned ALL necrons, I don't know why everyone always thought they were mindless back then), certainly. They are still intelligent beings. While they may have few physical needs, they should still have the full gamut of mental and emotional ones. Curiosity about the universe, art, literature, companionship and stimulating conversation, a need to stave off boredom, etc... The lack of biological bodies may make their needs very alien, but they should still be there. The tragedy in the old codex was that the necrons still had those needs, but were limited in their ability to satisfy them. Now they are free to indulge in their immortality basically anyway they wish.If we were to put a basic Necron warrior in a room, would it ever require ... stimulation?
Everything that needed to be done to necrons: making their armies more diverse, giving at least the leaders a clearer capacity for personality, fleshing out the background so they don't seem so monolithic; all of that could have been done with just a few minor alterations in the existing background. Instead they scrapped everything and came up with something much worse.
The best analogy I can think of for how I imagined necrons in the old book is Goa'uld hosts from Stargate SG-1. Living minds trapped in their bodies, able to perceive the universe around them, but unable to ever interact with another being.
It took me a while to come to terms with the fluff as well. However i did come up with some background fluff, goals, and motivations for my Necron army. I , like others here, like to immerse myself in the fluff of my army. This is what i came up with:
"The Shamashian dynasty survived the long sleep better than most. The reason for this is that they had developed their stasis technology far in advance of the majority of their race. Hidden deep within their stasis tombs lies a terrible secret. Rows upon rows of preserved genetic material are stored within stasis crypts, the last biological legacy of the Necrontyr race.
Phaeron Utu, the self styled "Lord of Dawns", was the last living Phaeron of the Shamashian Dynasty at the time of bio transference. Utu proved to be remarkably farsighted, foreseeing the dire consequences bio transference would have for his race. Delaying the process for as long as possible, he harvested as much genetic material as he could. Enough to seed several planets. Nearly all of the Dynasty's resources were devoted towards the preservation and protection of this precious treasure. Even after bio transference and during the war in heaven, the Shamashian Dynasty continued to improve and perfect upon this technology. When the time came for the long sleep, it was a simple matter to adapt it to preserving their metallic forms.
Now awakened and returning to their former strength, the Shamashian Dynasty has a renewed purpose. Firstly, they shall rebuild their dynasty and purge their territory of all Xeno filth. Second, they will take the best worlds under their dominion and transform them into veritable paradise planets. Lastly, they will open their stasis crypts and finally put their contents to use. For the first time in untold millennia, a new generation of Necrontyr shall walk beneath the stars.
Utu knows that his plans must be kept a closely guarded secret, even from other Necrons. For many, the sight of flesh and blood Necrontyr would drive them to madness and violence. The tangible reminder of what they lost being more than they can bare. Others, like the flayed ones or destroyers, wouldn't hesitate to slay them as they would any other organics. Still others, such as the Triarch Praetorians, may try and claim the new born Necrontyr for themselves.
To Utu, the rebirth of the Necrontyr race is his most sacred duty. Without new generations, they are all doomed to stagnation and decay. While many Necron Lords search for the perfect host bodies in to which they can once again become flesh blood, Utu scoffs at such foolish notions. For how can a Necrontyr soul be born to anything but a Necrontyr body? Utu knows that as flawed as their physical forms were, they were key to making them into who they are. Even with these idealistic goals in mind, Utu knows full well that the new generation of Necrontyr shall eventually become the next generation of Necrons. The best and brightest shall become the new lords and rulers of the Dynasty, while even the lowest specimen can be transformed into a Necron warrior, and put to use in the defense of their race."
Thats my attempt to give my dynasty some personality and motivation.
Last edited by Bonzai; 28-04-2012 at 01:15.