Knightly order questions

[Dreadlordpaul]

Hey guys, so I have a few questions about knightly orders so here goes.
1) is it possible for a entire order to turn to chaos?
2) How close are knightly orders and the collages of magic. Would a wizard willingly follow a grand master?
3) Are greatswords part of a knightly order at all?

[DarthSte]

1) Everything is possible, it's Warhammer. Never happened before, very improbable to ever happen.
2) Grand Masters are seen as some of the greatest generals that The Empire has to offer. A Wizard is more likely to follow a GM than refuse. A high level wizard lord would likely have a bit of an ego conflict with a GM.
3) No.

[Dreadlordpaul]

1) Everything is possible, it's Warhammer. Never happened before, very improbable to ever happen.
2) Grand Masters are seen as some of the greatest generals that The Empire has to offer. A Wizard is more likely to follow a GM than refuse. A high level wizard lord would likely have a bit of an ego conflict with a GM.
3) No.

Thanks for the reply, looks like i may have to change the fluff of my chaos army then

[theshoveller]

Greatswords as explained in the last few books aren't part of a Knightly Order, but since they're mechanically identical to Knights on foot with Great Weapons, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have them as such in your own army fluff. Once upon a time, you could have foot knights in an Empire army.

[dirach.]

1) Yes it is possible, and more so with a small order than a big. I have no examples, so I guess it would be rare. And if they turned to chaos they would most likely turn into chaos knights and march with a chaos army.
2) I don't know any order tied to the college of magic, but the wizards have a task to protect the Empire, so they would follow a grand master that they believe did so. But I guess some grand masters wouldn’t include wizards, but all the great orders would.
3) Greatswords can be seen as a collection of all the troops using great sword and full armour, so my answer would be that most greatswords don’t belongto an knightly order, but some may do. In earlier editions there were Reikguards on foot, and I use my Greatsword as Reiksguard knights on foot. (You could argue that The reikguard isn’t an order, but that’s another story)

[theshoveller]

(You could argue that The reikguard isn’t an order, but that’s another story)

Hmm...?

They certainly think they're an order in the novel Reiksguard.

[Dreadlordpaul]

1) Yes it is possible, and more so with a small order than a big. I have no examples, so I guess it would be rare. And if they turned to chaos they would most likely turn into chaos knights and march with a chaos army.
2) I don't know any order tied to the college of magic, but the wizards have a task to protect the Empire, so they would follow a grand master that they believe did so. But I guess some grand masters wouldn’t include wizards, but all the great orders would.
3) Greatswords can be seen as a collection of all the troops using great sword and full armour, so my answer would be that most greatswords don’t belongto an knightly order, but some may do. In earlier editions there were Reikguards on foot, and I use my Greatsword as Reiksguard knights on foot. (You could argue that The reikguard isn’t an order, but that’s another story)

My idea was that my chaos lord was a grandmaster who along with his knightly order and his 2 brothers fell to Tzeench because they were the laughing stock of the empire and Tzeench promised them that he would enable them to change their fate and grant them great power in return for their devotion; 1 of his 2 brothers was a wizard lord and his other brother was the leader of the local greatswords. As such they all fell to tzeench and after fully falling to chaos they fled to the chaos wastes where the grand master Faros found a tzeench worshipping tribe of Marauders and challenged their leader then killed him. The greatswords eventually became chosen and as his reputation grew a warband of chaos warriors came to him and he killed their leader finally becoming a chaos lord and was gifted with a daemonic steed he named snizkit. the warband joined his followers and they became the warband known as the warband of the architect of fate. Faros took the name Faros the lord of ruin his brother tzenkial became tzen'ki'al the changed and his other brother became Ech'in'char The Exalted Of Fate

[slaanghoul]

Chaos touch all and all can fall to chaos.
So many fail argument here, it's not even funny.

the greatest of all the fallen is The Everchosen himself .... Archaon.

Archaon was a Templar Priest of Sigmar! Your fluff is minor compare to Archaon, yes Tzeentch will have no problem turning your Grand Master into one of his puppets.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Well, yes but archaon found some kinky stuff in a book that scrunched his faith into a small ball and defecated on it, Beastman style.

To my mind, a slightly better reason than Dreadlordpaul's.

Although... if you added some form of catalyst event to their search for strength, then it could be a very good one.

Of the top of my head, something like the folowing;

The Grand Master swore to the Emperor that his Order would protect randomPartOfTheEmpireA, was laughed at by Ol' Karl and HatedKnightlyOrderC was sent by the Emperor instead, so Grand Master swore to the gods that he would repay all for such an insult, tried by facing HatedKnightlyOrderC, failed and then was exiled for attacking the Emperor's troops along with his brothers.
Tzeentch came to them in their exile and offered them the strength to avenge themselves on those who scorned them.
or something...

obviously needs a bit of expansion, but something like that makes for a far more compelling fall to the Dark Gods

[Dreadlordpaul]

Well, yes but archaon found some kinky stuff in a book that scrunched his faith into a small ball and defecated on it, Beastman style.

To my mind, a slightly better reason than Dreadlordpaul's.

Although... if you added some form of catalyst event to their search for strength, then it could be a very good one.

Of the top of my head, something like the folowing;



obviously needs a bit of expansion, but something like that makes for a far more compelling fall to the Dark Gods

Well the cataclysm event would be that his family aside from him and his 2 brothers get killed by a band of witch hunters after *someone* spread a rumor about them being chaos worshippers and so he and his brothers accepted tzeench's patronage and their followers (the knights and greatswords) out of loyalty to their leaders followed them in devoting themself to tzeench.

[DarthSte]

DLP, what models are you thinking of using, Chaos or Empire?

[Dreadlordpaul]

I was thinking for the chaos lord archaons steed grandmasters body chaos knights head. Im going to be using a mix tbh

[DarthSte]

I was thinking for the chaos lord archaons steed grandmasters body chaos knights head. Im going to be using a mix tbh

That sounds really cool. Which GM were you thinking of using, I've got the Knights Panther model and it's a fairly nice model but very static. Kurt Helborg is by far the nicest of the Grand Masters, but is a few pounds more. (I was going to say "but is much more expensive tthan the others, but just saw the price of the old ones now that they're in Finecast...)

[Dreadlordpaul]

That sounds really cool. Which GM were you thinking of using, I've got the Knights Panther model and it's a fairly nice model but very static. Kurt Helborg is by far the nicest of the Grand Masters, but is a few pounds more. (I was going to say "but is much more expensive tthan the others, but just saw the price of the old ones now that they're in Finecast...)

Not quite sure yet, can you make a grandmaster out of the general of the empire box?

[Athlan na Dyr]

Well the cataclysm event would be that his family aside from him and his 2 brothers get killed by a band of witch hunters after *someone* spread a rumor about them being chaos worshippers and so he and his brothers accepted tzeench's patronage and their followers (the knights and greatswords) out of loyalty to their leaders followed them in devoting themself to tzeench.

Oh, very nice. Personally not 100% sold on the followers going with them to outright heresy, but if you're happy, go for it.

Conversion sounds great! I'd love to see a little Witch Hunter hat somewhere or a unit filler. Hmm... perhaps some ideas for my own army... Anyone know what components the witch hunter model comes in? I'm guessing head (for trophy), body and sword (that is a nice looking sword). Crap, now I'm thinking of some skellies building a pyre around the body whilst my Vamp lord has his head.... I need to find some of my 40mm bases

[DarthSte]

Not quite sure yet, can you make a grandmaster out of the general of the empire box?

I don't see why not, it's a man in full plate on a barded warhorse. Really looking forward to seeing your conversion!

[Dreadlordpaul]

I don't see why not, it's a man in full plate on a barded warhorse. Really looking forward to seeing your conversion!

Thats good and yeah the thing is i like archaons steed and all but i dont like his rules or points cost.

@Athlan na Dyr I had the idea that well 1) they was already starting to fall to tzeench when this all happened as they knew that money and supplies was running low and so Tzeench offered them hope, a better life and the ability to shape their destiny. The knights fell for pretty much the same reason, they wanted power, the ability to shape their destiny how they see fit.
Well i am considering having my lords steed rearing up over the witch hunter

[Dux]

Well the cataclysm event would be that his family aside from him and his 2 brothers get killed by a band of witch hunters after *someone* spread a rumor about them being chaos worshippers and so he and his brothers accepted tzeench's patronage and their followers (the knights and greatswords) out of loyalty to their leaders followed them in devoting themself to tzeench.

Going heresy because of loyalty sounds unrealistic. You can't simply extinquish all your mens faith in sigmar.
But if he corrupts them over a long time it is more realistic and would fit into the tzeentch theme.
The lord could pretend to go on a "crusade" into the north to prove his loyalty to the imperium.

[Dreadlordpaul]

Going heresy because of loyalty sounds unrealistic. You can't simply extinquish all your mens faith in sigmar.
But if he corrupts them over a long time it is more realistic and would fit into the tzeentch theme.
The lord could pretend to go on a "crusade" into the north to prove his loyalty to the imperium.

Thats kind of what i was getting at as him and his 2 brothers slowly fell to tzeench the greatswords and knights over time became corrupted and so when the witch hunters killed the rest of their family the great swords and knights along with Faros and his 2 brothers finally fully succumbed to tzeench and joined him. They now wish to destroy the witch hunters and their followers even if it means destroying the empire

[Arnizipal]

he killed their leader finally becoming a chaos lord and was gifted with a daemonic steed he named snizkit.

Was his daemonic steed a Skaven?

Faros took the name Faros the lord of ruin his brother tzenkial became tzen'ki'al the changed and his other brother became Ech'in'char The Exalted Of Fate

Neither Faros, Tzenkial or Ech'in'char are Imperial names.
I think that part of your story could use some work.

Thats kind of what i was getting at as him and his 2 brothers slowly fell to tzeench the greatswords and knights over time became corrupted and so when the witch hunters killed the rest of their family the great swords and knights along with Faros and his 2 brothers finally fully succumbed to tzeench and joined him. They now wish to destroy the witch hunters and their followers even if it means destroying the empire

If they were slowly falling to Tzeentch then it wasn't a rumour, it was fact and the Witch Hunters had grounds to be suspicious.
I don't see how their family being burned at the stake would make the brothers a laughing stock either.