Functional mechs?

[Avian]

So the 40K Dreads are laughably silly - if they'd lift a leg they'd fall over and never be able to get up again - and Titans are far too heavy to ever be useable. But are there any piloted mechs that you know of from a game or book series or whatever that would be functional in the real world? That is to say that it doesn't just look cool, but it would serve some sort of actual military purpose and do it better than, say, a tank or a gunship.

[Burnthem]

Where do you draw the line between an armoured suit and 'Mechs'? Would the suits worn in Starship Troopers (the book) count as Mechs? Or the advanced suits worn in novels such as Revelation Space and the Culture Universe? Or does it apply to purely 'sit-in' suits ala Tau Crisis Suits and the Mech from District 9?

Speaking of which, the Mech in District 9 is to me absolutely brilliant, fast, well armed and reasonably armoured, and small enough to not become an obvious target to everyone within a mile. Having multiple units of these running around would be a scary prospect indeed.

[Avian]

Let's say anything from 1.5 times the height of a person and up. The bigger the better.

[AndrewGPaul]

I can't think of any mech that would do better than a tank with an equivalent armour thickness and weaponry. Tanks will probably have a lower ground pressure, as well as presenting a much smaller profile to the enemy. In addition, they're more stable firing platforms, are unlikely to get knocked over by impacts, and will be better armoured - you can't really armour all the joints on a 'mech, after all.

Any benefits seem to come from fiddling with the laws of physics to allow them to work (Gundam) or simply stating that they're better with no justification and hoping everyone plays along (Titans, Jovian Chronicles, Heavy Gear).

[C. Langana]

I can't think of any mech that would do better than a tank with an equivalent armour thickness and weaponry.

What he said.

A mech is a katana by any other name when it comes to real world millitary application. By which I mean it might look awesome in Anime, but it's not going to do terribly well outside of it.

An excellent series of books which demonstrates what happens when tanks have ridiculous amounts of win bolted to them is Keith Laumer's Bolo series. I'd thoroughly recommend a look. It also rather neatly demonstrates the above point regarding what happens if similar amounts of R&D (or science magic) are used on a tank. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_(tank)

If you were wondering where the real world has gotten to as regards sticking legs on things, it's this thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww
The key issue with mechs is always going to be that a tank will do the same job cheaper and better, leaving a mech (as opposed to powered infantry) for a couple of very niche applications (which could also be better filled by aircraft, drones, etc).


Sorry to micturate on your fried slices of tuber.

On a plus side however, I would suggest that the Mecha things from Patlabor are actually of some use (Dominion Tank Police is still better) as I can see that a large robot suit might be quite handy for crowd control (with net guns etc) or for a generally imposing presence. However it's most likely going to be over-kill and might encourage an elevated response from demonstrators.

[Avian]

That was pretty much my conclusion as well. Legs just seem vulnerable and slow. I was pondering their use in urban fighting, where opponents might not have much in the way of heavy weaponry.

[C. Langana]

Again I'm afraid comes down to the cost benefit thing. Let us suppose we have a mech (or several) and these are being used extensively in some form of urban pacification (I think that's what we call it now?) ok, city fighting.

Appropriately equipped infantry are still going to be preferable (especially in some powered armour) as you either have a Mech which is too big to fit through doors, and is as well armoured as a tank, in which case, you'd be better of with a tank.

Or you've got something fast* and lightly armoured, which is either a powered infantryman (which we're discounting) or it's an expensive deathtrap - which still most likely can't climb stairs or fit into a building. Now while some contemporary MBTs have survived a frightening amount of RPGs (Looking at you Challenger II - you oh so pretty tank) there are not a great deal of stories about vehicles such as a Bradley doing the same.

So we're left with an expensive lightly armoured unit that can be taken out with a common or garden RPG.

In which case you're better off leaving it at home, and if you needed it, using an MBT instead.

Now I know there are some delightful countermeasures against RPG's, but you're still going to be better off with an AFV carrying said countermeasures for the reasons outlined above and in previous posts.

* when I say "Fast" I don't mean it can fly or anything like that, I mean 20-40 MPH seems reasonable in a city area tops.

[AndrewGPaul]

micturate

You learn something new every day.

[de Selby]

It seems probable that in circumstances where a human presence is absolutely required some kind of powered armour suit is eventually going to be developed for them to move about in, and supporting machineries with legs are going to be handy for such a unit. The Big Dog linked above would help with that, but I can easily imagine a larger-than-man-size suit being added into the unit for carrying larger-than-man-size weapons, equipment and stores, since it would be technologically easy once you had powered armour. It wouldn't be a replacement for a tank but an augmentation for infantry. Tanks would be replaced by robots or aircraft or both.

In general it seems probable that everything is always going to need to be as small as possible, which is unfortunately bad for rule of cool. Is a big strong suit still useful if it has to knock down a wall to get indoors? Maybe. They'd need transporting with the infantry unit though, so that sets a pretty hard limit.

I'm trying to imagine an urban firefight between two infantry units, one equipped with some RPGs and the other having powered infantry and this one dude who's 15 feet high and armed with several machine guns and an autocannon that can shoot through buildings. I suspect the guys with the RPGs are more scared in this scenario, even if they are more cost-effective.


edit. The closest thing in literature I can think of would be the soldierboys in Forever Peace, which were like infantry only much much better. They were remotely piloted however and I can't remember how big they were supposed to be.

[Avian]

So the hope is that, once powered infantry armour has become sufficiently common, some megalomaniac dictator will get the urge to make a very, very large suit.

[de Selby]

I can't see any reason for a really large suit other than megalomania. 40k has the complication of void shields of course, which require the user to be big and reward it for so being.

I checked Forever Peace and the soldierboys are described as 'huge' but I think that's only compared to an ordinary man. They're small enough to be faster than a man, which is one of the things that makes them terrifying.

[AndrewGPaul]

The other thing about powered armour is that while you'll probably be protected from rifle or even machinegun fire, it's unlikely to be similarly impervious to things like RPGs. You're also cutting down your mobility since it'll have trouble going into buildings, and it'll probably be less able than an unarmoured human to take cover. I would think that several RPGs will be significantly cheaper than a suit of powered armour, and be much easier to maintain.

If it's a pack drone, then why make it humanoid? Make it insectoid, and it'll be more stable, mobile and lower to the ground. two-legged walking is rather difficult to do, since you spend most of the time falling forward. With six or eight legs, the machine always has a stable three or four points of contact with the ground, and it also means you can have a couple shot off without becoming crippled.

[C. Langana]

On the topic of powered armour, and leaving aside the issues of actually powering it. I seem to remember we had a thread many moons ago where it was established that there was a good chance of Space Marine power armour weighing so much that it and the user would go through the floor. I may not remember this exactly but it seems applicable here too given the likelihood of bomb damaged buildings.

There's also the issue of counter measures. I can foresee something like a modified XM25 (the grenade firing supercomputer rifle thingy) being modified for doing horrible things to it. Don't get me wrong, it's going to be pretty handy, but I

[Avian]

Well, presumably they would be used much like real () Space Marines are used in the background - as a rapid strike force. Applications could be things like the raid on Usama's compound where you fly in, strike before anyone can get ready and then leave. RPGs don't have much use right up close. I will agree that Marine power armour isn't very practical and it would make more sense to have several variants useable in different conditions. You don't need hard-vacuum gear when you fight on a farming planet, after all.

[Apologist]

Non-standard terrain and planetary conditions might potentially give an edge to a walker.

Areas like Tsingy de Bemaraha or similar 'bio-fortresses' are impassable to (human) infantry and conventional vehicles, and would provide shelter and cover from the air. Walkers wouldn't find it easy either, but a sufficiently flexible and armoured one might stand a good chance.

Deep, soft terrain, with low visibility (like a misty swamp or deep soft blizzardy snow) or cover (like a forest canopy) would make air cover difficult, dangerous or impossible, and would bog down conventional vehicles. 'Stilt-walkers' might be able to operate.

Exotic terrain like massive cave systems, or theatres that vary a great deal (i.e. some parts submerged, airless or impossibly tight or enclosed) would grant an advantage to any vehicle that was flexible – so walkers would be at an advantage here over aircraft (who find such theatres inaccessible), conventional vehicles (who can't cope with the variety of terrain), and infantry (who are insufficiently protected).

On top of that, aspects like the gravity of a planet might affect viability.

Just a few thoughts, really. Walkers are outclassed on the sort of terrain and warfare we currently fight, but that doesn't mean they'll be useless in exotic locales, or for unforeseen circumstances. Combining the all-terrain flexibility of infantry with the ruggedness of a vehicle is a good combo.

[de Selby]

I think it's important not to get too hung up on 'cost effectiveness'. RPGs and IEDs are cheap compared to the vehicles they can destroy, but NATO hasn't stopped using vehicles in response. High tech asymmetric warfare of the future is going to involve spending large sums on relatively small improvements in effectiveness relative to large numbers of inferior opposition. High tech symmetric warfare is presumably going to involve rapid escalation to thermonuclear missiles, so the issue doesn't arise.

[Sai-Lauren]

Not a mech in the "guns and armour" sense, but the Aliens powerloader is probably the most practical, and therefore the most likely to appear (and IIRC, it's only the lack of a suitably sized and powerful enough power source that's preventing it).

And of course, someone will eventually think of hanging guns and armour off it.

[Avian]

That always had me dubious about it's balance - it seems to me that it should have trouble carrying the weight it does and walk without tipping over. And in the fight, the Queen drags it into the pit fairly easily. A normal fork lift just seemed much more practical.

[theunwantedbeing]

That always had me dubious about it's balance - it seems to me that it should have trouble carrying the weight it does and walk without tipping over. And in the fight, the Queen drags it into the pit fairly easily. A normal fork lift just seemed much more practical.

Yeah the actual design of the thing is rubbish.
But the idea behind it isn't necessarily a bad one and various companies are actually trying to create a similar thing for the same sort of use (and eventually military).
It won't become a large mech though.

[AndrewGPaul]

Deep, soft terrain, with low visibility (like a misty swamp or deep soft blizzardy snow) or cover (like a forest canopy) would make air cover difficult, dangerous or impossible, and would bog down conventional vehicles. 'Stilt-walkers' might be able to operate.

"stilt-walkers" would be useless - you'd need big, flat feet to avoid sinking into that soft terrain.

The power-loader was cool, but like Avian, I suspect a traditional forklift-type vehicle would have been better. After all, it's operating on a nice clean, flat surface.