White Lion or Phoenix Guard Horde??

[Thruster]

I'm trying to build a main block for my HE army. 30 White Lion horde looks scary and tough against small fire power; however, some people tell me to use Phoenix Guard instead due to 4++ ward and hopefully a mindazor...

So how have you guys experienced with these two units.. support by Lvl 4 and some eagles?

[Rosstifer]

White Lions all the way. No buffing needed, that is one nasty unit from the get go.

[vcassano]

I wouldn't horde either, but if I had to it would be the White Lions. As Rosstifier said, they do not require buffing and thus against most opponents you will be hitting on 3+ with a reroll and wounding on 2+ with no armour save. They carve units up with ease, which High Elves can't often do.

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

No offense, but this poll skewed in the incorrect direction. I don't know who is voting, but if your goal is to develop a "tournament-ready non-etc-hammer" H.E army the only viable, build is the P.Gstar.

Obviously the above don't, or haven't played W.L, but they DO REQUIRE BUFFING. Forty T3 +5 A.S 15pt. models will drop like flies upon hitting the waves of elite units they will face. Sure they will go in and do something stupid like 25 wounds the first round of combat, but most elites tournament builds in the metagame either have a hordestar to match ours with Wards (chosenstar) - that minimizes damage- or multiple elite hordes Empire.

Understanding what both hordes bring to the table, and what both Hordes require is crucial, the W.L horde isn't bad, but it requires different unit cohesion and subsidiaries within the list than the P.Gstar does. I can delve into that another time (H.E tactica thread perhaps?) however, just remember that while your playing H.E's everything is expensive in numbers ;P as mentioned above, I wouldn't even bother with a horde under 3k.

[Rosstifer]

I've played againts WL's plenty of times actually, and literally the only thing in my army that can stop them is the Chosenstar, which costs a lot more points. Even then, it's hard to get that match up if the High Elf player is using his Eagles right.
Sure, don't put White Lions into say 60 Khorne Maruaders, that's just obvious, but they will wreck most units in the game in a round of combat.

It also does depend alot on your meta game I'll admit. We have a mixture of light comp and no comp around here, but most armies we build will always fit in the light comp. Just stops the game from getting stupid.

[GodlessM]

I wouldn't horde either

Why?

No offense, but this poll skewed in the incorrect direction. I don't know who is voting, but if your goal is to develop a "tournament-ready non-etc-hammer" H.E army the only viable, build is the P.Gstar.

Obviously the above don't, or haven't played W.L, but they DO REQUIRE BUFFING. Forty T3 +5 A.S 15pt. models will drop like flies upon hitting the waves of elite units they will face. Sure they will go in and do something stupid like 25 wounds the first round of combat, but most elites tournament builds in the metagame either have a hordestar to match ours with Wards (chosenstar) - that minimizes damage- or multiple elite hordes Empire.

Understanding what both hordes bring to the table, and what both Hordes require is crucial, the W.L horde isn't bad, but it requires different unit cohesion and subsidiaries within the list than the P.Gstar does. I can delve into that another time (H.E tactica thread perhaps?) however, just remember that while your playing H.E's everything is expensive in numbers ;P as mentioned above, I wouldn't even bother with a horde under 3k.

All wrong. Chosenstar are the only other horde that stand up to Lions, and even then, they still get screwed over by chance often enough. Anything else gets eaten by the Lions to the point that they can't do enough damage back (unless of course they cost significantly more for a lot more bodies, in which case your point is still moot). What other hordes have ward saves are you claim, cause all I see else is Daemons. As for Empire having multiple elite hordes; what army book are you looking at? Sorry mate, but hyperbole isn't an argument. Waves of elites in every army is there? People who don't agree with you don't play the unit do they?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Elite hordes in Empire? Our "elites" are about on par with High Elf spearmen, without ASF. They're now 11 points a model which makes them expensive to horde.

The burst damage from flagellants might allow them to damage a horde of White Lions, but that's basically a one shot weapon. They're also 12 points which means anything that can rock WLs will be just as expensive.

[Von Wibble]

Greatswords with reroll to hit and +1 to hit (pretty likely to see) as a horde of 30 can expect to inflict 10 or so wounds on chaos warriors (without shields or MOT). High elf spearmen, erm, don't (its more like 6, assuming a horde of 50, which costs more) So I have to completely disagree with the post above. 500 points for a horde including a character isnt that expensive btw (I don't count hurricanums cost there as its buffing other things too). Only thing is the high elves go first.

Regarding the OP - I think it depends what you want to do with magic.

Phoenix guard favour lore of shadow so you can lower enemy T or use mind razor. They are the better option in general if you are looking for your spells to weaken enemy units or improve fighting ability of your own.

White Lions favour lore of life so they can regenerate and you can ressurect them, as they will die a lot quicker. They are better if you are looking to protect your own troops or weaken enemy attacking (so shadow is still OK for them as you can lower S and WS).

If you aren't looking for a strong magic phase, I'd go Phoenix guard as you can always support them to improve killing power, (but its harder to get back dead models).

[Wesser]

Phoenix Guard is one of the nastiest things out there for its points.

While Lions are more killy, but ultimately Phoenix Guards combines solid killyness (WS 5, str 4 with reroll) and the fear will often come in handy against LD bombs from VC or daemons. Also they are one of the most rock-hard units the game (which is ofc fluff-wise a terrible thing), which is something no other elven unit can say.

A 1+ armour save (and praying the HE player dont get mindrazor off) is the only effective defence against this terribly overpowered unit.

White Lions will often take their killers with them, but they are so easy points that I yet to see them exit a battlefield alive

[Malorian]

As a simple horde I'd go with the white lions. As a hordestar I'd go with the phoenix guard.

[Djekar]

I don't know who is voting, but if your goal is to develop a "tournament-ready non-etc-hammer" H.E army the only viable, build is the P.Gstar.

Hyperbole aside, you should check out Ulthuan.net if you think the above is true. I've seen at least 4 different very competitive builds there.

[boli]

There isn't much difference between wounding on 3+ and wounding on 2+; but there is a HUGE difference between +1 save vs missile fire and a 4+ ward. If you are going to invest any sort of points in a horde (30 min, ideally 40 strong - which is 450-600 points not including command) they are going to need to survive before they reach combat and there the 4+ ward shines.

[vcassano]

Why?

Just because I don't think that deathstarring is the best approach for High Elves. Phoenix Guard need buffing to kill, White Lions need buffing to stay alive, Swordmasters even more so. I think they work best as an MMU army, that controls movement and magic then strikes when necessary. Ulthuan has a series of excellent battle logs that detail different tactical/strategic approaches. The Army List section is one of the best sets of Warhammer threads on the internet.

[Thruster]

Phoenix Guard is one of the nastiest things out there for its points.

While Lions are more killy, but ultimately Phoenix Guards combines solid killyness (WS 5, str 4 with reroll) and the fear will often come in handy against LD bombs from VC or daemons. Also they are one of the most rock-hard units the game (which is ofc fluff-wise a terrible thing), which is something no other elven unit can say.

A 1+ armour save (and praying the HE player dont get mindrazor off) is the only effective defence against this terribly overpowered unit.

White Lions will often take their killers with them, but they are so easy points that I yet to see them exit a battlefield alive

I never notice about PG's fear feature; a neat thing against fear army I guess. Though the lack of stubborn can mean a bad luck combat round could see them running, unless you have a character with crown of command with them.

For some reason though, I really feel that str 4 doesn't cut it against many monsters and other hordes these days.

[GodlessM]

Just because I don't think that deathstarring is the best approach for High Elves. Phoenix Guard need buffing to kill, White Lions need buffing to stay alive, Swordmasters even more so. I think they work best as an MMU army, that controls movement and magic then strikes when necessary. Ulthuan has a series of excellent battle logs that detail different tactical/strategic approaches. The Army List section is one of the best sets of Warhammer threads on the internet.

The only High Elf list I've ever seen consistently perform well at tournaments (regular top 4) is a friend of mine, and he runs 4 large units backed by characters and Eagles, playing points denial while killing everything with Lions mostly. That's certainly not MMU.

[DeathlessDraich]

I'm trying to build a main block for my HE army. 30 White Lion horde looks scary and tough against small fire power; however, some people tell me to use Phoenix Guard instead due to 4++ ward and hopefully a mindazor...

So how have you guys experienced with these two units.. support by Lvl 4 and some eagles?

1) I didn't vote because it is 'depends on' question but I'm very surprised that so many have chosen White Lions.

At 2250 or 2500 pts, PG tips is a must have unit.
WL - Stubborn is a huge bonus but their rate of depletion (considering elites) is nearly twice that of PGs - 13.1 IIRC compared to 8.0

2) 30 WL - will look more delicious than scary for the right unit.

3) HE don't need to expend points on a level 4 unless you allow BOH

4) Eagles are Mandatory but I would describe their role as Sacrificials or diversionary rather than supportive

[Thruster]

The only High Elf list I've ever seen consistently perform well at tournaments (regular top 4) is a friend of mine, and he runs 4 large units backed by characters and Eagles, playing points denial while killing everything with Lions mostly. That's certainly not MMU.

@GodlessM: Can you post your friend's list? If both of you don't mind, ofcourse.

1) I didn't vote because it is 'depends on' question but I'm very surprised that so many have chosen White Lions.

At 2250 or 2500 pts, PG tips is a must have unit.
WL - Stubborn is a huge bonus but their rate of depletion (considering elites) is nearly twice that of PGs - 13.1 IIRC compared to 8.0

2) 30 WL - will look more delicious than scary for the right unit.

3) HE don't need to expend points on a level 4 unless you allow BOH

4) Eagles are Mandatory but I would describe their role as Sacrificials or diversionary rather than supportive

@Deathless: I'm quite surprised that you say PG is a must have but not LVL 4 mage. Because I really feel that PG horde really need magic to augment their hitting power. Str 4 attacks will not cut it against some of the nasty elites/monsters we see these days.
My feeling is that WL needs less magic augment than PG. Can you give us a list of how you would run the PG in 2500 pts? I really want to see PG horde work, but I'm still quite skeptical about them.

[Pointy Headed Elven Paladin]

IMO I'd prefer running White Lions over Phoenix Guard for 2 very simple reasons:

1) Stubborn
2) Str 4 + Great Weapons + SoA = Elite/Monster/Character Slayers

Granted PG has the staying power with their ward saves and with their halberds are great against average toughness troops with 5+ saves they don't have the same killing power as the White Lions or the Swordmasters.

I usually play at 2000 pts. and my unit of 20 White Lions with full command led by my Immortal Archmage with Life & Cookie Cutter BSB tends to rip through most units they run into. In a horde they would be that much harder to stop IMO. The only time I would feel that PG is the better choice is if I plan to play with Shadow Magic and my opponents tend to field a disapproriate amount of war machine firepower.

[Asuryan's Spear]

I just wanna point out that a direct comparison is not the best way of assessing these. having played both they fulfill very different rolls. the WL horde is your armies mailed fist, punching through any enemy unit, whereas PG are your anvil. personally i use Korhil in a unit of PG to make them stubborn and then these guys are hell to shift.

[Rosstifer]

I just wanna point out that a direct comparison is not the best way of assessing these. having played both they fulfill very different rolls. the WL horde is your armies mailed fist, punching through any enemy unit, whereas PG are your anvil. personally i use Korhil in a unit of PG to make them stubborn and then these guys are hell to shift.

I find it funny that Korhil works better in PG, and Caradryan(?) works better in WL.