White Lion or Phoenix Guard Horde??

[vinny t]

Have you read ANY of the arguments for PG in this thread?

FACT - PG are likely to engage in fights where they are buffed by Mindrazor. FACT: This cannot be proven nor has any real basis
FACT - PG with Mindrazor hit harder than WL with Mindrazor
FACT - PG are more survivable than WL

It's all about context man, units do not exist in a vacuum in this game.

EDIT - the fact that over 60% votes for Lions here speaks volumes as to the general skillevel on the users of this forum.

All of your arguments seem to be including Mindrazor in your calculations. What are you planning to do if your Archmage dies or you roll snake eyes for your magic phase?

You bring up context, and the fact remains that there are too many variables to start chucking in random bits of context. Either bring up specific armies, specific spells, specific matchups or accept the fact that both units have their purposes.

Also the personal shot toward the people who voted for White Lions seems unnecessary.

[Rosstifer]

Fact - Pheonix Gaurd don't always have Mindrazor? Don't need to be arrogant about it, there is plenty of competent Tournament players on this forum, and plenty of competent players full stop. All we can give is our own experience, and from my own experience with my WOC, White Lions are nastier. They have done more damage to me.

Most High Elf players I have seen, including NZ's top ranked HE player, who ought to know something about HE, use White Lions, 28 of them, and a smaller bunker of Phoenix Guard.

At the end of the day it's all down to personal preference. Most WOC players would rate Hellcannons very highly, but I think they are a bit poor because they don't suit me. Everyone is different.

[warplock]

White Lions will shred most things without Mindrazor, which leaves you - gasp - free to cast Mindrazor on something else. Now you have 2 scary units. So come on, is it really that boneheaded to favour Lions, or could it be a valid personal preference? That said, as has been pointed out, PG are better with Mindrazor. But perhaps we had better just forget about Mindrazor, because once you start factoring in magic buffs (especially ones as powerful as that) you're not really comparing the units any more, as there are too many variables to consider.

[Deroga]

I agree with you warplock on that i want my elite infantry to be able to dish out damage without relying on magic, since magic is never guaranteed...especially the 'super nuke' spells like mindrazor. Once an opponent is burned by the mindrazor trick he will begin to just save his scroll for that very combat. I just don't want to have to rely on a, roughly, 25% chance to irresistible it on the, usually, one combat phase a game i need it.

That being said, ill throw in my 2 cents...

This is, imo, a decision that should be 100% determined by your caster(s) + Lore Selection setup.

Personally, i run a lvl 4 and a lvl 2, both with High Magic. High Magic has no damage enhancing spells that Phoenix Guard benefit from, but has 1 damage reducing spell that gives a 5+ ward save to a friendly unit, which benefits White Lions / Sword Masters far more. So, for my magic preference, i choose to use White Lions and Swordmasters (or for the threads sake, White Lions), because their damage is Self Sustainable.

If someone takes a lvl 4 Shadow Mage, where there are more damage enhancing spells, then Phoenix Guard are generally a better choice, because they have Self Sustainable survivability.

[Morax]

Un-comped - this thread keeps coming back to the same point over and over, which highelf elite you field comes out to which magic lore you pair them with.

High elves have, if not the strongest, one of the strongest magic phases in the game. Comes down to the ability to easily take a banner of sorcery, any of the 8 core lores, a potent specialty lore of their own, the book of hoeth, a wide variety of useful arcane items, and the argueably strongest caster in the game with Teclis. All of these factor into the choices you make for the rest of the list, namely elites.

Shadow - Works wonders with low strength units and controling the flow of the battle. Miasma gives you amazing control, Enfeeble makes t3 look hard to wound, Pit takes out big scary things that are hard to kill otherwise, Mindrazor/Withering makes even spearmen hit like a ton of bricks.

Life - Shores up natural high elf weaknesses. Flesh to Stone can make your t3 elves harder to kill then chaos warriors, Dwellers Below is quite possibly the most damaging spell in the game, Earth Blood gives you a second save that is quite often better than your first save, Shield of Thorns can make you almost immune to chaff flankers, Regrowth can replace expensive models with ease, and Throne of Vines makes the whole lore better while protecting you from miscasts

I point out these two lores as the are commonly used by High Elf players and they showcase the difference in the two units here.

Shadow pairs well with Pheonix Guard by enchancing their chances at wounding and targeting the things they can't handle with damaging spells. The Pheonix Guard don't need help surviving, which is rare in a high elf list, due to their in-built 4++ save so an offensive lore suits them well.

Life pairs well with White Lions by enhancing their survive-abilty through nearly half the spells of the lore and also provides a spell that stops enemy units from tarpitting them. White Lions don't need help killing things due to their strength 6, so a more defensive lore pairs nicely with them.

In short, it depends on the lore you are taking, which unit is better. I tend to go with lore of life with death support so white lions work well for me.

[bigbear bailey]

Have you read ANY of the arguments for PG in this thread?

FACT - PG are likely to engage in fights where they are buffed by Mindrazor.
FACT - PG with Mindrazor hit harder than WL with Mindrazor
FACT - PG are more survivable than WL

It's all about context man, units do not exist in a vacuum in this game.

EDIT - the fact that over 60% votes for Lions here speaks volumes as to the general skillevel on the users of this forum.

lol wish I could have fit this in a sig! We all suck man, I hope we play some time and you get a miscast on that wizard because Ill save my scroll

[RugbySkin]

Personally, I like PG. Simply because I use only 4 big blobs of units so I need to make them survivable. The Ward, the armor, the immune to fear make them the winners for me. When one overrun is 350ish points of my army, I wanna avoid that. To me, it just seems the PG do that better than WL.

However, I've only ever teamed up PG with Swordmasters. Would y'all recommend me switching to PG and WL instead?

[Tarian]

Personally, I run a small block of Swordmasters, a medium block of White Lions, and a large-ish block of Phoenix Guard. (14, 20, 28, respectively) Then again, I never run Teclis or the BoH, and usually do alright.

I do like the Phoenix Guard though, as they're incredibly hard to shift, especially since I tend to run dual mages (Life and Shadow).

[CmdrLaw]

After a game I ran which was ALL horde. WL horde, PG horde, SM horde and Spearmen horde these were my results:

PG Horde, well PG are a great bunker very solid and annoying to shoot at. But the damage output was not nearly enough, STR 4 is not high enough. Plus if you want to guarantee Mindrazor you need the Book which is not a friendly choice.

Never Horde Spearmen or SM's, SM's are just too squishy to shooting, and STR 5 is nice but will have trouble with Heavy armour. Spearmen lose attacks far too quickly.

But the WL Horde really proved amazing, it's ALL down to STR 6. Having this without any buffs is Sooooooo useful. Your no longer reliant on Shadow to Nerf Toughness and you don't need Mindrazor, means you can have a much more interesting magic phase rather than just 6 dicing MR and hoping for IF (or relying on Teclis/Book)


In fact I was so impressed I pointed a great Thrace themed list with two 40 Man WL hordes (1 for each flank) plus 1 or 2 Chariots of Thrace.

[vcassano]

Fact - Pheonix Gaurd don't always have Mindrazor? Don't need to be arrogant about it, there is plenty of competent Tournament players on this forum, and plenty of competent players full stop. All we can give is our own experience, and from my own experience with my WOC, White Lions are nastier. They have done more damage to me.

Most High Elf players I have seen, including NZ's top ranked HE player, who ought to know something about HE, use White Lions, 28 of them, and a smaller bunker of Phoenix Guard.

At the end of the day it's all down to personal preference. Most WOC players would rate Hellcannons very highly, but I think they are a bit poor because they don't suit me. Everyone is different.

Olannon uses a horde of White Lions too... I think people are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is presenting the positive arguments for Phoenix Guard as proclaimed in the thread. All his points are facts, as he puts it, and he isn't assuming that you can always get mindrazor off BUT he is assuming that if you choose a Phoenix Guard horde then you would build the army around Mindrazor. Using Banner of Sorcery, the Book perhaps, the seerstaff, to guarantee the spell. I know from reading his excellent blog that he does not do this. But it is obviously a viable choice.

I would go for White Lions because unless you are building the afore-mentioned army, I feel that White Lions need limited magic support, whereas the rest of the High Elf army almost needs it. Therefore White Lions provide you with guaranteed and reliable kills. They are solid in an army that traditionally lacks solidity.

[Asuryan's Spear]

while all the points here are perfectly valid, it got me wondering whether this is a good comparison. the units, IMO, do decidedly different things, with you pheonix guard being your attrition anvil and your white lions your hammer. in a straight up casualty fight the lions will win as, unbuffed, their str 6 will rip through most units. this shouldnt be suprising as its what they were designed to do. try and have them hold a superior unit up in combat and they won't last long, this is where Pheonix guard are useful as, with stubborn from Korhil ,again a personal choice, they can hold your enemy up with their 4++ for several turns allowing another part of your army, maybe WLs to smash into a flank and win the fight. i feel, admittedly maybe wrongly, that alot of the posts seem to think the two units are being compared in a kill tally per turn kinda thing which is wrong when one unit is obviously meant to be superior in that regard through design

[CmdrLaw]

while all the points here are perfectly valid, it got me wondering whether this is a good comparison. the units, IMO, do decidedly different things, with you pheonix guard being your attrition anvil and your white lions your hammer.

While this is true the original question was which makes a better HORDE, seeing as anvil units want to be deep and hordes want to kill as much as possible, so it is pretty much down to their worth in this situation.

Additional, it seems the only situation where the PG are more useful is against another high Ward Save unit, such as chosen or Savage Orcs w/ shrunken head where the STR is less useful for removing armour.

Haven't run the numbers of PG or WL against a Savage orc bigun horde with 5++.....would be interesting to see.

[dementian]

A friend of mine plays HE and it was his first time meeting a SOBU unit last game. It crushed his PG handily. The PG were unbuffed and now I can't remember, I think the SOBU were unbuffed as well but the shaman in the unit may have had fists of gork but still...30 PG vs a horde of SOBU he dealt like 7 or 8 wounds to me, and as I rolled 30 dice at him and counted up like 15 wounds he was stunned. Then when I grabbed the dice for the rest of the attacks his jaw dropped because that was only the front row.

[GodlessM]

Olannon uses a horde of White Lions too... I think people are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is presenting the positive arguments for Phoenix Guard as proclaimed in the thread. All his points are facts, as he puts it, and he isn't assuming that you can always get mindrazor off

This contradicts itself. If he is assuming anything then it isn't a fact, it is just something he is taking for granted. Half of his argument is that Phoenix Guard with Mindrazor do more damage than White Lions with Mindrazor, which is a silly comparison given that White Lions don't even need Mindrazor, not mention that against anything that isn't T8 or with a 1+ save, they have the exact same damage output with Mindrazor. Of course his arrogance that everyone else sucks has a lot to do with why people now loath him.

[Agusto]

There is something really strange going on here... As a High Elf player myself, I am often over at Ulthuan.net reading tactics and battle reports. There is the very same debate going on over there about PG vs. WL and Curu Olannon says this over there:

"This is an incredibly hard question to answer. I'll give it my best try, without writing for hours.

White Lions are without doubt the most independent of our elite units. By that, I mean that they don't need anything to do their job. Whereas Swordmasters quickly die to ranged firepower and Phoenix Guard struggle to deal damage, the White Lions can do both alone. Strider + Stubborn most certainly help too, believe me!

Phoenix Guard are incredibly durable. Cause fear and 4+ ward go a LONG way to keeping those guys around way longer than normal Elves would. The problem with Phoenix Guard is that they need to be augmented to deal any damage - this can be done by adding a character to their ranks or magically assist them.

White Lions is an easy unit to use on lower skill levels. Essentially, when your opponents aren't good, the point-and-click nature of play is dominant and White Lions really shine here. What they struggle with is chaff, trickling and foorprint - issues less experienced players tend not to encounter.

Phoenix Guard is a hard unit to play well. As they rely on support and synergy, they're an inherently more complex unit to master than Lions. With that being said, if you can pull this off it is likely a very strong unit that will face your opponent.

My personal opinion is that Phoenix Guard are likely the stronger unit out of the two. What I've seen so far of successful builds usually revolve around Phoenix Guard. Secondary units vary between White Lions, Swordmasters and Dragon Princes. While they have a steep learning curve, when they work they really do work. With that being said though, there are a number of roles that Lions can fulfil that PG never can. Most importantly, this has to do with being a strong, independent unit. This can be very important if you're going for a type of army that cannot inherently assist the PG that well (e.g. a Dragon list)."

Curu Olannon does not come out as a arrogant individual in that debate and it seems a bit strange that he has one oppinion on that site and another here. Is it even the same person?

Just wanted to share and I hope that it is ok to quote that other thread...

Agusto

[Deroga]

I frequent Ulthuan regularly myself, and have seen that same post. I have also wondered of that is not the same Olannon lol

[Azaireal]

Holy rules errors, Batman...

Further up the page there's a PG vs WL maths post that states that PG get rerolls vs WL due to higher init....this is wrong. Both units strike simutaneously and get no rerolls because both have ASF. I has nothing to do with anything in that situation. This is why treason of the big blue bird means that elves don't reroll hits on themselves...they both have ASF.

I"m sorry. As I said, an assumption. You should not listen to other people about rules and just read them myself once in a while to avoid silly mistakes like these mistakes.

WL horde VS PG horde

ad hoc math...

WL: 30 Attacks/~15 Hits/~13 Wounds/ no armour/ ~7 Wounds after ward
PG: 30 Attacks/~22 Hits/~15 Wounds/~2 (6+) armour saves/~13 Wounds after saves

Assumptions: no command, no banners, no buffs, and the PG get re-rolls from higher Initiative.
Considering WL benefit most from Flame, Movement, or Leadership banners, they gain little from command. PG benefit more from Razor, they would remove the WL armour completely (so ~two more wounds). So after one round of ad hoc combat, the WL are reduced to 50% and the PG are sitting at 75%.

Should read...

~5/6 Charges (did not fear with re-roll)
WL: 30 Attacks/~15 Hits/~13 Wounds/ no armour/ ~7 Wounds after ward
PG: 30 Attacks/~15 Hits/~10 Wounds/~2 (6+) armour saves/~8 Wounds after saves

~1/6 Charges (Failed fear with re-roll) [really bad estimate-math a 1 am seems to always make more inaccurate sense]
WL:30 Attacks/~10 Hits/~9 Wouds/no armour/ ~5 Wounds after Ward
PG:30 Attacks/~15 Hits/~10 Wounds/~2 (6+) armour saves/~8 Wounds after saves


Assumptions: no command, no banners, no buffs, (no re-rolls)...
Considering WL benefit most from Flame, Movement, or Leadership banners, they gain little from command. PG benefit more from Razor banner, they would remove the WL armour completely (so ~two more wounds). So after one round of ad hoc combat, the WL are reduced to 66% and the PG (with Razor banner) are sitting at 75%. [On a side note: re-rolls would have apparently provided ~16% more casualties]

For people who read it and see nothing, I'm just pointing out who wins in a toe to toe fight. It seems relevant...
--WL<SM<PG<WL-- maybe

[Brewmaster_D]

Why on earth is this so hotly contested? It's all about context.

Phoenix Guard are lacking offensive punch. They absorb wounds like you wouldn't believe, however they lack the ability to punch through armoured or high toughness models. They are also not stubborn, which means a flank charge could cost you a silly number of points if you're fielding a horde. They are also extremely vulnerable to Dweller's Below - opponents from other tables will come over just to cast it on your horde.

White Lions have good offense on their own, and are stubborn, lowering the risk from taking a bad charge. However, they're also as vulnerable as any elf to things like impact hits or other ASF attacks. Essentially anything that can take the wind out of their sails offensively also takes their defense down as well (see: the best defense is a good offense).

With the above in mind:

A Phoenix Guard horde needs to be built with its weaknesses in mind - a stubborn character and a BSB wielding the Banner of the World Dragon is ideal to protect your sizeable points investment.

A White Lion horde needs to be built with defense in mind. Some form of magical support to protect your investment from the inevitability of Chariots/Lore of Light opponents.

And thus we see that each unit has its own strengths and vulnerabilities requiring support from the rest of your choices. This is what Olannon is arguing: Each is good in the right situation, and each is bad in the wrong situation. It's up to us to use our brains and build the rest of our list to support the unit and make sure it's in the right situation as much as possible.

Hence the comments about Mindrazor and Phoenix Guard - this is one of the most right situations they could be in.

D

[Thruster]

Why on earth is this so hotly contested? It's all about context.
.....

It's hotly contested because in most tournament/games you can only field ONE Horde from special??

Seriously though, I have a lot more ideas on how to run both units from this thread, Thanks to all the intelligent people here.

PG will need magic support in killing. Since there are more choices for damage augment/Hex (eg. Fire, Beast, Metal, Shadow, Death, etc...), your LVL4 can pretty much pick whatever lore he likes. As Malorian say, it's easier to make PG a Horde-Star.

WL need less magic support, although you can buff them with magic augment (less choices compare to damage: namely High Magic, Life). The good thing about this, though, is that you can magic support your suck-ish core troops, as we all know mindazor is awesome even on spearmen.

Hope you guys are getting as much information as I do

[vcassano]

PG will need magic support in killing. Since there are more choices for damage augment/Hex (eg. Fire, Beast, Metal, Shadow, Death, etc...), your LVL4 can pretty much pick whatever lore he likes. As Malorian say, it's easier to make PG a Horde-Star.

Surely not? White Lions don't need buffing to kill units and with the High Elven advantage of speed, killing people has a defensive advantage (killing enemies before they can strike). Plus they can be buffed up with far lower value spells (Shield of Saphery, Wildform, Earthbloom, Flesh to Stone etc.) than are required to make PG as killy.

WL need less magic support, although you can buff them with magic augment (less choices compare to damage: namely High Magic, Life). The good thing about this, though, is that you can magic support your suck-ish core troops, as we all know mindazor is awesome even on spearmen.

This is the main point for me: High Elf core already requires magical support and that comes in limited supply so WL, a unit that does not really need support, adds a solidity and reliability that the army lacks.