Background question from a warhammer campaign I was in

[grumbaki]

Here was the situation. I was in a dwarf faction. We had two goals: control the underground section of the map (7/12 locations) and take back a Karak (held by orcs). A skaven faction also had to control the underground, and an orc faction had to hold the Karak. We dwarfs realized that we couldn't fight both at the same time.

So I came up with a plan, working with one of the Skaven players. The Skaven would allow us to have 5/12 underground sections, and we'd let them have 7/12. It would give the dwarfs a fluffy supply line, and most of the "dwarf sections" of the underground. In return, the Skaven would turn their attentions to betraying their NPC Skaven allies, and we dwarfs would focus on killing orcs.

I tried selling it to our NPC leader by saying that it wasn't that we were friends with the Skaven, we were just allowing one Skaven clan to betray another while we focus on killing orcs. Our NPC figurehead threatened to take the Slayer oath if we even talked to the Skaven. So...in the end the Skaven kicked the living crud out of us, and we had to retreat out of the underground completely. The campaign just ended with the Karak's underground entrance completely collapsed, and the tunnels leading to it flooded (to keep the Skaven out, as they were gearing up to join the Karak fight after they beat us in the underground).

So the question is this: from a pure background point of view, could you see dwarfs doing this? IE: Agreeing not to attack Skaven so that they can focus on other enemies? Or, as many of our players argued, when faced with overwhelming odds should we have just did what we did: grit our teeth and make a few heroic lasts stands?

[tiger g]

dwarfs should not deal with skaven. You got what you deserved. :>))

[Urgat]

To the OP: the dwarfs would rather die indeed.

[Little Joe]

Put it this way, winning due to dealings with Skaven will get you into "the" book of grudges. You lose all you gained and even more, your entire clan should takes the slayer oath when they find out. No dwarf will have dealings with you and you are probably kicked out or worse.

Dwarfs are like that, so you played it right.

[Naanomi]

As presented above, yes probably. Choosing to focus on one enemy rather than another instead of losing both wars would be possible, and dwarves hate greenskins every-so-slightly-more than they hate Skaven; so if it was more of a tactical decisions to retreat from the Underground to converge on the Karak it would be OK, but framed as an actual discussion with Skaven it could never have worked. Even if the dwarves understood they were fueling a skaven civil war by backing off.

[TheDungen]

Well simply ignoring the skaven and going for the o&g is no problem but making a treaty with the skaven is stupid (the skaven cant trust the skaven, then who else can?) and very undwarfish.

[Lord-Caerolion]

Yep, honour is too important to the Dwarves to make a deal with scum like the Skaven.

[Imp of High Noon]

Can't really see Dwarves even contemplating talking to Skaven to be honest, possibly this is due to insecurity about Skaven science being far superior to that of the BeardThings. Also the Skaven should definatley betray you, they're honour bound!

[m1acca1551]

I'll get the clippers out and we can shave your head lol

Dwarfs under no circumstance would deal with let alone ally with skaven unless the dealing was axe to the face. At the end of the day it was played the way it should. The only assistance dwarfs would give to skaven is opening a tunnel to allow the skaven and orcs access to each other and mop up the rest.

[Lord Squidar]

Well I can see some upstart beardling suggesting this to the longbeards, and then getting a new orange hairdo, but as everyone has said, dwarf foreign policy tends to be A: smash in face with hammer or B: seal the hold and wait for them to starve to death. So the few last heroic stands would have been the best fluff option. All in all though, a really good scenario showing why dwarfs are a doomed race.

And as for skaven lying. thats just a vicious rumour started by the empire. We ratmen are honourable warriors, and we don't eat babies, or build doomsday devices.

[grumbaki]

Thanks for the replies guys. Looks like the nay sayers who screamed "I'll die before I allow this to happen!" were correct, and our NPC figurehead was right to threaten to take the slayer oath. Ah well, live and learn.

As a note though, my dwarven character was one who cared more about looking honorable than actually being honorable. In the previous campaign, he secretly worked with some skaven to further faction goals (finding the karak which we fought the orcs over in this campaign), so I still hold that my biggest mistake was going public with the idea.

[Craze_b0i]

Dwarf would never instigate an alliance with skaven for the aforementioned reasons. Nor would there ever be face to face talks. The only way it could happen is if the skaven players sent you an anonymous letter, as Thanquol did to Gotrek and Felix. Something like this:

Deer Frends, you must know that we mean you no harm nor conspire in any way to possess you tunnels, wishing only to hold onto our own tunnels yes yes. The orcs on the other hand are dirty and treach-a-rous swine that shud be destroyed.
Your frend.

[Urgat]

Well I can see some upstart beardling suggesting this to the longbeards, and then getting a new orange hairdo,

Dwarfs aren't that extreme, thankfully. I doubt a beardling would be any more likely to suggest that, but if he wanted to try and look smart to impress the longbeards, and did nonetheless, it'd be settled with a good buffeting and sending back the suckling to his home to ponder for a few dozen more years on what good sense is, and not something as extreme as a shave

Dwarf would never instigate an alliance with skaven for the aforementioned reasons. Nor would there ever be face to face talks. The only way it could happen is if the skaven players sent you an anonymous letter, as Thanquol did to Gotrek and Felix. Something like this:

Deer Frends, you must know that we mean you no harm nor conspire in any way to possess you tunnels, wishing only to hold onto our own tunnels yes yes. The orcs on the other hand are dirty and treach-a-rous swine that shud be destroyed.
Your frend.

Haha, those letters were most amusing, and Felix very stupid (I'll grant him, though, that upon receiving a weird letter, one's initial reaction might not be "darn! a skaven wrote me a letter!", but still)

[Lord Squidar]

I dont think Felix was stupid, maybe a bit naive but there was no way he would know it was from a skaven (whom the empire flat out ignores the existance of), and reading is such a rare skill in the empire it could have only come from someone of importance, at the very worst a merchant, and i dont recall him showing the letters to gotrex, who probably would have picked it up right away.

[Craze_b0i]

Actually he shows the letters to Gotrek and they both realise its from a skaven. Ofc they don't know why the writer is helping them but since the writer is giving them vital information they decide, quite sensibly, that they should at least follow it up to find out if its true.

[Lord Squidar]

Its been a while since I read them. Gotrex should have known better, but then again he is a slayer so not prone to making wise choices =P It all worked out well for them in the end, despite Nuln being half sacked.

[Craze_b0i]

Hmmm I still don't see what exactly you think Gotrek did wrong? They investigated the warning within the letter, which seems perfectly reasonable, and indeed it turned out to be valid.

[grumbaki]

Second Question

Campaign 1: Dwarfs move into an Imperial town. One Templar player (witch hunter faction) has a grudge against dwarfs so he burns the town down and blames it on us. And when we offer to help rebuild it, he instigates anti-dwarf riots. He proceeds to impede us every step of the way in the campaign, nearly leading to outright war.

Campaign 2: It starts, and the Imperial faction demands an apology from us in exchange for us working together. We refuse, and end up working closely with a subsection of their faction (Marienburg merchants).

Post campaign, a number of players argue that we should have just apologized. Naturally, no dwarf player agrees.

So, here is the question: Given that we didn't ever have the resources to fight the Imperials over this, we never wrote down the grudge. Instead, we wrote it down to them being idiots and did our best to stay as far away from them as possible, while working with those whom we could actually trust. Given this situation, was this the proper dwarven thing to do? Or should we have declared a grudge, and attacked them if they got to close?

[Dustfinger]

the Skaven should definatley betray you, they're honour bound!

Perfection.

[Athelassan]

So, here is the question: Given that we didn't ever have the resources to fight the Imperials over this, we never wrote down the grudge. Instead, we wrote it down to them being idiots and did our best to stay as far away from them as possible, while working with those whom we could actually trust. Given this situation, was this the proper dwarven thing to do? Or should we have declared a grudge, and attacked them if they got to close?

I think the proper Dwarven thing to do would be to record the grudge so that it's remembered and you/your descendants can avenge it when you have the resources to do so, although this would depend on circumstances. If you believe it genuinely to be a misunderstanding or mistake with no malice aforethought on the part of the grudgee, then you might let them get away with it, if it's a first offence. Additionally, I suspect that just because a grudge is borne doesn't necessarily mean that you can't work with the grudgee if it's to your advantage to do so, or if there's a greater threat (especially if the grudge is minor and/or against someone who would otherwise be an ally). In fact, although I'm going a bit out on a limb here, I don't see any reason why a grudge couldn't be "worked off" rather than avenged with violence, i.e. If the grudgee performed services to outweigh the cost of the grudge (and any additional costs of the grudgor incurred in procurement of that service) then the grudge could be struck off.

I'd say in your second example you were correct not to apologise, especially if you had nothing to apologise for. In the first one, the witch hunter(s) should definitely go into the Book of Grudges.