Would you get annoyed if YOU played this list?????

[althathir]

Which older players were those? What "broken" units, exactly? The fact that they're seen by so many people as psuedo-official is the very reason they don't get played enough, which makes people more reluctant to use them.

A bunch of random people you don't know, but seriously read the fw threads in the rumour section you'll see enough the sky falling style threads

To directly quote FW themselves:
So, there you go: Official. The fact that they suggest you let your opponent know is a courtesy. I'd rather be surprised by a Bombard or a Fusion Blaster Hammerhead than put up with garbage min-maxed lists out of a well-known Codex.

Ok so where is the quote from GW, and yes I know who owns FW but its an important distinction. I like forge world btw, but honestly GW could clear this up in a heartbeat and they don't (mainly cause I don't think the store fronts would like it (i'll get to that later)

Also, FW models are WYSIWYG (which is a big deal considering it's the core rule of the game) and "fluff-friendly" too. If anything they're still catching up with models that have existed for decades. For example, the Gorgon has always been a superheavy open-topped infantry transport with mortar-type weapons, and it's had a model for Epic since before the Tau were even conceived. What kind of "broken" or "unfamiliar" unit is that?

I know forgeworld is WYSIWYG, granted I have no ideal of what some the weapons do, regardless I meant his list would be WYSIWYG. I've played 40k for over 10 years and this is the first I've heard of a Gorgon so its unfamiliar and it may be broken (doesn't matter much since its a super heavy), as far as fluff friendly again i'm posting about his list not forge world

... snip (i agree with you here)...

1. What kind of an excuse is that? Playtest using a proxy or buy the FW model and have a few games... it's how everyone else has to get used to the models and their rules.

Most tournies I have been in have been in stores. I have never been in a store that sells Forgeworld models over the counter. Most stores aren't gonna be excited about a bunch of models that people order online cause alot of them can't compete with online venders when it comes to their core range. Thats the problem.

2. They don't seem to have that mentality about Chapter-specific rules fo, now do they? How hard is it to remember that my Leman Russ Conqueror has a Blast Krak Missile instead of a Battlecannon, if I'm expected to remember three or four pages of army-specific wargear and psychic powers for your Grey Knights? Isn't that why we bring our rulebooks to games?

Those books and models are in their stores, and marines make it easier for them, because they share quite a bit of the range, so they get alot out of the shelfspace, furthermore because of the different strengths of the chapters more models tend to be considered useful so they're not sitting on swooping hawks for an edition

3. Again, that doesn't seem to bother them if it's the Astartes. And they're represented evenly enough. IA1: Guard. IA2: Marines. IA3: Tau. IA4: Tyranids. IA5: Guard. IA6: Chaos. IA7: Renegades/Daemons. IA8: Orks. IA9: Marines. IA10: Marines. IA11: Eldar. OK so there's not exactly a ton of DE or Necron stuff, but at least FW includes them. They started with a shedload of Imperial stuff because most of it was ported over from Epic.

Were looking at this from different perspectives, your saying most fractions are covered, i'm saying that imperial fractions get quite a few additional units. Where as in the core game most books tend to have similiar numbers of units in them. This is actually my only problem with FW in tournies, and its not much of one, I would gladly play in a tournie that has FW, but without knowing someones situation I'm not gonna recommend FW either

Not being able to anticipate FW units is no excuse either. It's no more of a surprise than, say, bringing your army to play vs Biel Tan Eldar and expecting to face a lot of assault Aspect squads, only to find it's a shooty list using Wraithguard, Dark Reapers, and Fire Prisms. You shouldn't expect people to say "oh hey I'm using lots of infantry models, make sure you bring some Griffon Mortars!" If your list is balanced, you shouldn't have a problem unless your opponent brings an equally unbalanced list, and that's not down to the Codex, playtesters, or FW. That's down to you or your opponent.

Not only that, they release quite a lot of their experimental rules FOR FREE ONLINE. Sure they might change a bit before they're published, but how do you not anticipate that?
Some players don't even know what forgeworld is, people feel blindsided by stuff like this, so TO's tend to try and reduce headaches

Responses above, tl:dr I like forge world stuff but as long as some stores won't allow it, im not gonna suggest people buy it.

Thanks I might use that list instead, actually
Sqallum

Good luck with whatever army decide, don't get too caught up in what other people think though at the end of the day your the one buying, assembling, and painting the army.

[Soldado]

The only gripe I'd have with that list is that since it's pre-heresy, they would not have had assault cannons of stormravens since they hadn't been invented at that time

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of pre Heresy vehicles/dreads with AC (need to check collected visions and the card game, both canon). Stormravens and Stormeagles are indeed pre Heresy.

[Importman]

Why would anyone be annoyed playing against this list? Doesn't look like an uber BA list by a long shot.
In a different note I don't like playing against guys who never get around to painting their stuff up besides a spray of under coat. I don't mind if they use these models just to try things out in a few games but not if they are permanent feature of their army and they don't even bother to paint them up half decent.

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[LegioDestructor]

but seriously read the fw threads in the rumour section

The rumour section is a good heads up on what is coming out next, but pretty terrible for seeing how those units actually perform in a game. They aren't released yet, and the rules are not always finished. People freaking out about FW is the same to me as people freaking out every time a new Codex is released. It's the unknown. It's change. Some people don't know how to deal with it.

Most tournies I have been in have been in stores. I have never been in a store that sells Forgeworld models over the counter.

Very true, and I see your point. Until...

Most stores aren't gonna be excited about a bunch of models that people order online cause alot of them can't compete with online venders when it comes to their core range. Thats the problem.

It's one thing to not carry an item in stock, it's another to "never get excited" about it. This is a business but it's also a hobby that we love. I doubt people got into running a game store for the profits. Forge World went from producing a couple of Baneblades to now where they have models that can be used in any army, and often even be used as "Codex" units. Players around the world get excited about FW models we may never afford, touch, or even see in person. For it to be ignored is, IMO, a mistake. Surely not everyone thinks this way, and I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. Just how I feel about it.

And thanks to FW releasing experimental rules nearly as often as they release a model, I know what a Heavy Conversion Beamer does. But what is a Splinter Pod? Blood Talons? Oath of War? I guess it's all a matter of perspectives.

I like forge world stuff but as long as some stores won't allow it, im not gonna suggest people buy it.

A fair conclusion. I was being a bit of a devil's advocate but I've always been a fan of home-games and house rules over competative tournaments so naturally FW is right up my alley.

RE: OP, this has always been my conundrum with Pre-Heresy armies. It has always been a heated matter of contention on when, specifically, certain weapons / vehicles / munitions were invented, used by specialized forces, or issued to entire armies. Some are mentioned with a specific date of their first recorded usage, but others are hazy because the overall timeline is not that detailed. Like others have said, this will be your army and it depends on what you want to do with it, and how comfortable your opponents are with "counts-as" interpretations. This is after all, in it's original version at least, just a Blood Angels army painted as Night Lords. Unless there is a specific mention in the BA Codex (haven't seen it) that says they must be painted red or be a BA successor to use the rules, there should be no argument.

If people are really going to gripe and whine about Pre-Heresy Assault Cannons when you start placing units, they are the kind of people who should stick to arguing on the internet and leave the gaming to people who want to have a good time shooting and stabbing each other with awesome plastic models.

[althathir]

@LegioDestructor
1) I agree about the rumour section, but not everyone sees it that way. I actually think the internet leads to a whole lot of "herd" think in our hobby because it is so time consuming that we aren't playtesting every thing for ourselves, regardless a TO is gonna have to deal with some of those people.

2) I think some stores view FW as a gateway towards online retailers (its not so much the fw stuff, as their customers realizing they can the GW stuff at some nice discounts). The one I go to now that isn't the case at all, they'll even help organize orders to split up shipping but wargaming isn't the primary source of income there, and the owner loves forgeworld. That said I could see some stores having problems with it mainly because since of i've been gaming off the top of my head I can 3 stores that went under.

3) As far as your point to the OP, there really aren't rules as far as painting your models certain colors that i'm aware of.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

The existance of the CSM version makes the BA list cheesy/gamey. If you want to play CSM, use thier codex. This is my opinion. I'm not in the majority, but it is one opinion to take into consideration.

This is the same answer I got when I wanted to play my Catachan army using the DE dex. They are T3, with high weapon skill and poison weapons. I thought it fit my fluff well. I was wrong, and have since understood that, you should just play the army out of the dex they are for. If you need to use a different dex, and the reason is not for keeping the army competitive, then maybe it's fine. Most people change dexs to keep competitive.
I'm not going to refuse to play you. I'll even be nice when we play. I'm just telling you my opinion on codex hopping. In my opinion, people trump armies and lists anyways. If you are cool, and your army is thought out and painted nicely, you can play any list you want. I'll have a good time. In my experience, it doesn't happen this way. People with these odious lists and codex switching also tend to be the same people with unpainted armies. They also tend to be the same people who are annoying as heck to play against as they argue every rule and issue during the game.
Just be cool. Don't worry about getting beat if you like your army, just play.

There's a difference, in my view, with your example and his case.

IG has a good book, and a more or less recently updated one at that. Catachans do not equate to Eldar in any form. There is no case of Catachans using poison shooting weapons that I'm aware of, thus it does seem to smack of using a book for it's rules. It may not have been your intention, but it may have the smell to it to your opponents.

In the OP's case, basically a marine is marine is a marine. You can interchange the models between codexes and most people won't even notice for the most part, because most of the equipment matches up. In the OP's case, the BA actually does represent NL VERY well. NL never use daemons of any sort, and with relatively very few exceptions, follow the Undivided path of Chaos. They also tend to favor using assault units, which the Chaos codex does not have in the Troops slot. Even the Storm Raven isn't out of place now, considering the recent release of the Storm Eagle, which Chaos does have access to. The OP shouldn't have to be forced to use what is essentially a crap codex in desperate need of rewriting, which is putting it gently concerning the current Chaos codex and it's godawful FAQs, when a perfectly good and very FLUFFY substitute exists.

I have never been in a store that sells Forgeworld models over the counter.

I have. Our Bunker used to keep them in stock a few years ago, until it became too much of a problem to keep track of the FW stock.

[Stonerhino]

The problem is that you can tweek the fluff to make any army you want use another codex.

Especially when you have other armies that represent the army just as well as the listed army. So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords. Maybe you should let GW know so they can make an errata listing NLs as a BA successor.

I will give the OP something for saying he will probably use codex SM. It means a lot more then "I want to use this codex" and manipulating the fluff to justify it.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

The problem is that you can tweek the fluff to make any army you want use another codex.

Especially when you have other armies that represent the army just as well as the listed army. So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords. Maybe you should let GW know so they can make an errata listing NLs as a BA successor.

I will give the OP something for saying he will probably use codex SM. It means a lot more then "I want to use this codex" and manipulating the fluff to justify it.

How is it "manipulating "fluff? It is canon that the NL's don't use Daemons, it is CANON that they use assault troops, it is now CANON that they can use Storm Eagles, it is even CANON that they have a weird preference for using certain weapons like Lightning claws. Yes there will be minor variances in some issues, but it's not like the Chaos codex doesn't have a lot of MAJOR ones with the Legions such as IW, AL, and NL.

Would you say that Alpha Legion don't match up fluff wise with a Raven Guard flavored list? I wouldn't, not based on what I've read on them.

Would you say that Iron Warriors don't match up fluff wise with the FW SM Siege List? I wouldn't, not based on what has been written about them.

How are these things "manipulating" fluff, if they match up with what has been written about the army??

[althathir]

The problem is that you can tweek the fluff to make any army you want use another codex.

Especially when you have other armies that represent the army just as well as the listed army. So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords. Maybe you should let GW know so they can make an errata listing NLs as a BA successor.

I will give the OP something for saying he will probably use codex SM. It means a lot more then "I want to use this codex" and manipulating the fluff to justify it.

To a degree sure, (it would be awful hard to justify a guard army using the C:SM), but for the most part I just don't see the problem in this case. The current chaos fluff really doesn't support making mono-legion armies and thats what their codex is based on. The OP is trying to make a Pre-Hersey Night lords army, it wouldn't be well represented using a codex that designed to make a warband. His first choice was BA because he liked storm ravens (which if the designs were found on a STC they would be pre-heresy right? Pretty sure that was when they stopped being made), to me thats a legitimate reason to start a force. He changed his mind when the storm eagle was pointed out to him which is just as valid. Either way people shouldn't be annoyed because its not some broken power list its someone using the codex that lets them make the force they want, in a WYSIWG manner. I just don't understand why people are up in arms about it.

[Hendarion]

People should get mad at GW for producing over-the-top chapter specific codices, not at you for using them.

Hmm... let me be a bit picky here. So if a human shoots a human, we should blame the manufacturers of guns and not the guy who fired it?

[Stonerhino]

Captain WITH Lightning Claw, Bolt Pistol

5 Terminators WITH Lightning Claws

Furiso Dreadnought WITH Blood Talons, Meltagun and Flamer

10 Assault Marines WITH Power Fist, Meltagun, Flamer, and a Rhino

10 Assault Marines WITH Lightning Claw, Flamer, and Meltagun

Stormraven Gunship WITH Assault Cannon, and Heavy Bolters

7 Sternguard WITH Power Fist, Plasma Gun and a Meltagun

6 Bikes WITH Lightning Claw

Looks a lot like:

Lord with Claw
5 Terminators with twin Claws
Dread with two DCCWs, Heavy Flamer
10 Marines with Fist, Melta, Flamer, Rhino
10 Raptors with Power Weapon, Melta, Flamer
Stormeagle
6 Bikes with Power Weapon

142pts for Icons and a second Troops choice/replacement for the Sternguard, with room to squeeze some more points out if needed.

There are no mark, deamons or super Chaosy stuff. So when the codex that the army actually comes from can make the same list. Why use another codex??? Unless you want to gain some table top advantage.

So like I said "So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords". So unless you agree that about that point. You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

[Dreadlordpaul]

No I wouldnt have a problem if im honest

[Aun Tier]

I honestly cannot see a single legitimate reason as to why someone would not allow you to play that list. If someone questions it, they're basically saying ''I don't like playing against BA, so I'm going to whine and try making you play with a horribly underpowered army so that I can win more easily''. Why not just view it as "I play with a BA codex, and my backstory is that they are a Deathguard Chaos Warband". To complain because you're using one codex rather than another because of your fluff is just absurd. It's like getting annoyed at someone for playing a Deep-Striking Ultramarines force rather than BA! Alternatively, you could always just not mention your Backstory.
If the issue is, however, that you're using Deathguard models, then I can see why they would be annoyed, but still, it's not like you're gaining an advantage. You're just as able to go down and buy a BA force as CSM, so whats the problem?
To me it's the same messed up principle that people use when they winge about Competetive lists in friendly environments. What are you going to do, use a list that sucks just because they don't like losing? But maybe that last point is because I'm a Tau player, and we don't really have competetive lists. :/

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Double post

[AlphariusOmegon20]

Looks a lot like:
There are no mark, deamons or super Chaosy stuff. So when the codex that the army actually comes from can make the same list. Why use another codex??? Unless you want to gain some table top advantage.

So like I said "So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords". So unless you agree that about that point. You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

Umm, no it doesn't look anything like it. Since when did Raptors become troops? Your list is illegal to start with, compared to the OP's, as it does not have 2 troops.

Second, with the exception of the dread carrying ability of the storm raven and smaller carrying capacity, there's damn little difference between a storm raven and a storm eagle.

Also, I was under the impression that by now, everyone understood that Chaos dreads were worthless and defilers aren't much better. I can not blame the OP for wanting to find a better option game wise.

The op wants a flavorful list that suits his army, no more. The current godawful cookie cutter Chaos 'dex doesn't even pretend to offer that for anything beyond "throw in the kitchen sink" Black Legion. I DARE you to make a flavorful, fluffy IW or even an AL list with the current Chaos 'dex. You simply can NOT do it.

So yes, I CAN make a very legitimate argument for using a different codex to represent NL, as well as a few other Legions.




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[qsd]

You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

Codex CSM is designed for the chaos and renegade warbands. It doesn't exactly represent pre-heresy Night Lords any better than the BA rules do just because it happens to mention traitor Night Lords.

The timeline matters because before turning to Chaos, Death Guard weren't decaying, the Emperor's Children weren't maniacs with sonic weapons, the Thousand Sons didn't have Rubric Marines, and with the possible exception of the World Eaters, nobody had insane Dreadnoughts as a norm.

[Stonerhino]

IW:
HQ:
Chaos Lord+power weapon
Elite:
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Troops:
Marines 10+missile launcher
Marines 10+missile launcher
FA:
none
HS:
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers


AL:
HQ:
Chaos Lord+power weapon
Elite:
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Troops:
Marines 10+missile launcher+rhino
Marines 10+missile launcher+rhino
Marines 6+rhino
FA:
None
HS:
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

By using a combination of Chosen, Terminators, Marines, Rapters, Bikes, Havocs and vehicles you can represent any of the Legions pre-heresy, even loyalist Legions. When Tempus Fugitives did their pre/during heresy rules. The army lists entries where based off of codex CSM. Special rules do not make it a fluffy army. The army list and play style do.

Disclaimer:
I was not making competative armies, just lists focusing on what each Legion's charater would look like on the battlefield. And one foot and one mech.

[Soldado]

Looks a lot like:
There are no mark, deamons or super Chaosy stuff. So when the codex that the army actually comes from can make the same list. Why use another codex??? Unless you want to gain some table top advantage.

So like I said "So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords". So unless you agree that about that point. You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

Obviously he wants to gain some advantage. The chaos dex is an uber-crap piece of ************ unplayable unles your're a freak and don't mind to lose (like me) or you do double lash, plaguerines, blitz list. A bland, plain boring, old screwed codex. What's the problem to like to win sometimes? Although I not use the BA dex, I fail to see how people can get annoyed about that.

If I played that list and someone complaint about, then I change my mind and say "ok, now that's a BA successor that just happens to like spikes". End of the problem. I don't wasn't mean to be harsh on you, but on the codex. No offence please.

[LonelyPath]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of pre Heresy vehicles/dreads with AC (need to check collected visions and the card game, both canon). Stormravens and Stormeagles are indeed pre Heresy.

The AC came later, otherwise we'd have had AC appear in the Heresy novels and they haven't, they would also have been referenced in any of the 4 existing editions of Codex: Chaos Marines, but again nothing there or in any other fluff I have ever read and can remember. Back then the terminators used autocannons. The SR first appeared in the hands of the Grey Knights, but not until fairly recently (in 40k terms of timeline). Storm Eagles are pre-Heresy and I agree with that, however the Stormraven is not.

It also worth pointing out that the Furioso Dreadnought also came years after the Heresy. Though that may have changed since their original inclusion in the game.

For references please check Lexicanum though, always a good place when in doubt of memory (and I often doubt mine so check it often, lol). They don't confirm of deny the Furioso claim, but they do prove my arguments for both the AC and SR.

[Soldado]

@LonelyPath,

The history of the Stormraven is pretty vague as to when it first saw service. Indeed could be, say, M36. Buf as far I'm aware, the STC's are rarely developed now in the 41st millenium. Most of them, with notabe exceptions like the Anihilator or some LR were build in the Age of Technology, that is, between M15 and M25. There are not evidence that the SR STC is pre Heresy, but there are not proof in the other way, besides is more likely to be pre Heresy until GW says otherwise.

About the Assault Cannon, it is, pre Heresy. Checked Collected Visions, and found a (funnily enough for me, because is my preferred legion) World Eaters Land Speeder with assault cannon (page 26 "Wroath Land Speeder squad"); then in page 103 there is a picture of a Long Fang squad with three marines, not terminators, marines carrying each assault cannons. Page 176: First pic, "Leonatus dreadnought" of the Blood Angels, carrying an assault cannon. Page 213 admech with assault cannon-ish weapon (blurry b/w pic tonned down in sepia color). Page 228 "Lorg Dreadnought" WE, w/ assault cannon. Page 238 "Ymir dreadnought" SW, w/ assault cannon. Page 252 "Mahrke Speeder Squad" WE Land speeder w/assault cannon. Page 270 "Khaddark despoiler squad" Sons of Horus, up to three space marines w/ assault cannon, an so on. Very pre Heresy to me.

I don't trust Lexicanum, it's pretty meh to me.

About the furioso, it's obvious that the point of using it is to represent sane close combat dread, being "clawy" and scary as hell.