The Emperor's Gift: Discussion

[MarcusAurelius]

The whole situation is new to them. They're faced with Astartes who act and plan like humans, and who are far more aware of humanity's hopes and fears and reactions. Even more so, they're facing Astartes who value creative thinking, eschew the rules, are known for breaking the rules, and are completely unwilling to back down. Of course they're going to be way out of their damned element. Of course they're being punked. It's a logical and natural side effect of their very nature and conditioning.

So the ability to think creatively and the unwillingness to back down allowed the SW "to punk" the GK, right...
What about all of the GK's advantages?

If I remember right they weren't going to take the Fang, they were going to do it Aliens style, "Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Yes...I don't think there's any doubt that Wolves would lose a war with the Inquisition if the Inquisition were sufficiently pissed off

[DDM]

Grey Knights are highly trained specialists, with a very rigid modus operandi, and the puritan Inquisitor leading them is not particularly open minded either.
It would be a gross understatement to say they're facing unforeseen circumstances, because that does not even begin to cover the situation.
The whole situation is new to them. They're faced with Astartes who act and plan like humans, and who are far more aware of humanity's hopes and fears and reactions. Even more so, they're facing Astartes who value creative thinking, eschew the rules, are known for breaking the rules, and are completely unwilling to back down. Of course they're going to be way out of their damned element. Of course they're being punked. It's a logical and natural side effect of their very nature and conditioning.

Grey Knights are specialists, but they're also supposed to be generally of a higher caliber. In an least one instance, the Grey Knights are called upon to wipe out an entire Chapter for deviation and heresy. Some of the Relictors escape, but the GK clearly know how to deal with marines.

I think I get where you're coming from, though. The SW do have a very unique outlook, and the GK (or at least, Hyperion) are genuinely puzzled by it. I'm just not sure that "out of their element" is the best reasoning for their performance.

[Wyrmwood]

Additionally, It may be worth considering that the Relictors made use of corrupted artifacts, and perhaps relied on them while fighting the Grey Knights. If not, then it would make sense for the Grey Knights to ambush them; either way, advantage to the Grey Knights. The Wolves, on the other hand, met the Grey Knights on equal footing: to negotiate, and used this to their advantage. Also, symbols of warding adorn the armour of most Wolves - this would surely have an effect on protecting them from the power of the Knights, or even disrupt their squad bonds.

[khirsath]

One has to remember that the wolves defining trait is that they are better at the defining trait of other marines. Just ask the heresy era night lords and world eaters. Think about all the lives the Grey Knights could have saved if they let Bjorn, the wolf lord and 2-3 other wolves go after a Daemon Primarch. It seems to be the cardinal sin in black library publishing to portray wolves in a way that could be negative.

But the GK/SW confrontation could have been handled better. The GKs could have been more reluctant to go after a first founding chapter for a multitude of reasons. This would allow the wolves a chance to initially have the advantage. But once the GK decided to throw their all into it the tables should have changed drastically. It should have gone to the point that the Inquisition had to step in before things got to the point of no return in order to prevent the destruction of the wolves, deciding that losing one of the first chapters would be the worse possible outcome. Its not unheard of an Inquisitor being reprimanded by other Inquisitors or an entire Ordos after all

I would think that GK could work there way around the wards of the wolves much like TS did. The priests and their psychic powers obviously would be defused like any other librarian.

[Lupe]

It seems to be the cardinal sin in black library publishing to portray wolves in a way that could be negative.

May I point you in the direction of this little snippet, then?

[shadowhawk2008]

One has to remember that the wolves defining trait is that they are better at the defining trait of other marines. Just ask the heresy era night lords and world eaters. Think about all the lives the Grey Knights could have saved if they let Bjorn, the wolf lord and 2-3 other wolves go after a Daemon Primarch. It seems to be the cardinal sin in black library publishing to portray wolves in a way that could be negative.

But the GK/SW confrontation could have been handled better. The GKs could have been more reluctant to go after a first founding chapter for a multitude of reasons. This would allow the wolves a chance to initially have the advantage. But once the GK decided to throw their all into it the tables should have changed drastically. It should have gone to the point that the Inquisition had to step in before things got to the point of no return in order to prevent the destruction of the wolves, deciding that losing one of the first chapters would be the worse possible outcome. Its not unheard of an Inquisitor being reprimanded by other Inquisitors or an entire Ordos after all

I would think that GK could work there way around the wards of the wolves much like TS did. The priests and their psychic powers obviously would be defused like any other librarian.

I think we read different books. Hyperion and Malchadiel make it quite apparent that Krysnaros is out of his mind to threaten the Space Wolves to the point of excommunicatus. Joros is apparently the GK nice-guy for the Inquisition since he is willing to take flak for all of the Inquisitor's bad decisions. But whatever. Hyperion and Mal are often conflicted against the Inquisitor's orders and it is repeated throughout.

But they are still Grey Knights and their duty is clear. And that's what they do. There is also a scene later in which Mal reprimands Hyperion for giving into his frustrations and simply choosing the expedient way of making the Inquisitor's war his own.

Besides, the Inquisitor is clearly shown to be at the head of a train wreck. He is also an Inquisitor Lord and has been placed in-charge of the Armageddon forces post-fighting with a Joros himself under his authority. This guy carries a LOT of weight.

[MarcusAurelius]

One has to remember that the wolves defining trait is that they are better at the defining trait of other marines. Just ask the heresy era night lords and world eaters. Think about all the lives the Grey Knights could have saved if they let Bjorn, the wolf lord and 2-3 other wolves go after a Daemon Primarch. It seems to be the cardinal sin in black library publishing to portray wolves in a way that could be negative.

I couldn't agree more LOL
...but you can add Alpha Legion and Night Lords to the list. Alpha Legion more so than NL. SW definitely take the cake

in order to prevent the destruction of the wolves, deciding that losing one of the first chapters would be the worse possible outcome

Yes but that would imply they're not invincible badasses and we can't have that can we

May I point you in the direction of this little snippet, then?

Hasn't been published by BL

[Xisor]

I'm still largely unconvinced on the 'Krysanaros was driving a train wreck'. Lovely as it is for us to much ballyhoo the Space Wolves as humane and exemplars in 40k - they're a massive liability. I make something of an attempt in an old blog to account - 40k's religion doesn't prize freedom, it doesn't prize love or virtue... it prizes obedience and ignorance. 40k's Wolves are neither obedient nor ignorant.

Showing them in a bad light isn't needed, showing them as dangerously anti-establishment. And this is dangerous as the lore makes a clear point about the establishment, about the Emperor and the Imperium being the only serious thing standing between mankind and damnation. In that regard, and indeed looking at what Krysanaros says in his discussion with Hyperion when Hype goes to kill him... well, Krysanaros isn't the fool he appears to be. A very different kind of fool who is out of his depth, but for different reasons and different, though arguably sincere, reasons.

[MarcusAurelius]

A very different kind of fool who is out of his depth, but for different reasons and different, though arguably sincere, reasons.

Actually, I think there are two possibilities:
he's a sincere pragmatist or he's a manipulative schemer who'll say whatever is more likely to win over the listener

I felt the latter part of the book was too focused, whether intentionally or unintentionally on the author's part, on burnishing the SW's cool factor. I wanted the GK to shine in an Astartes on Astartes confrontation (this is the elite psyker chapter sent to wipe out heretic chapters) and instead I felt like I was reading a SW fan-service.

[MajorWesJanson]

But the GK/SW confrontation could have been handled better. The GKs could have been more reluctant to go after a first founding chapter for a multitude of reasons. This would allow the wolves a chance to initially have the advantage. But once the GK decided to throw their all into it the tables should have changed drastically. It should have gone to the point that the Inquisition had to step in before things got to the point of no return in order to prevent the destruction of the wolves, deciding that losing one of the first chapters would be the worse possible outcome. Its not unheard of an Inquisitor being reprimanded by other Inquisitors or an entire Ordos after all.

The GK never did give it their all. They gave Angron their all. They gave Gargathuloth(sp) their all. If they really wanted the Space Wolves neutralized, they could have tried a strike at Grimnar himself, or at Bjorn. They chased down retreating guard units they were ordered to kill, fought the Wovles when they got in the way, but were never invested in killing the Wolves.

[Ragnarfan_12]

wow why all the hate for the wolves i dont get it its no different then the Ultramarines haveing all the planets invaded by tyranoids orcs and demons and still coming out on top or the salamandewrs haveing there planet attacked by masssive forces and takeing small loses

[MarcusAurelius]

things get more touchy when it's SM vs. SM

[DDM]

wow why all the hate for the wolves i dont get it its no different then the Ultramarines haveing all the planets invaded by tyranoids orcs and demons and still coming out on top or the salamandewrs haveing there planet attacked by masssive forces and takeing small loses

I think the main sticking point is that it's an internal Imperial conflict. As opposed to "Tyranids invade Ultramar" or "Chaos attacks Nocturne," there are no readily identifiable and automatic good guys. While both sides claim moral superiority, the truth is more muddled. This leads to we, the readers, falling into one camp or the other as our own tastes and opinions dictate.

Having ruminated on the book some more, I now more readily praise ADB's choices in this matter. The clown has done it once again.

[The Highlander]

I really enjoyed this book, the Gray Knights in it are far more interesting than the ones in their codex. I particularly liked the descriptions of all the minor physic abilities, things that would never show up in normal 40K but just make so much sense once you read them. I also loved reading about Annika and her henchmen, as a non space wolf woman from Fenris she represent a completely new angle on a familiar part of the 40K universe. Their conversations between the Khatan and Hyperion also serve to emphasise just how removed from normal humanity a Space Marine (especially a Grey Knight) really is. My only slight complaint would be that the second half of the book felt rather disconnected from the first half, but it was still a very enjoyable read.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Can some one tell me if there were any revelations about the founding of the Grey Knights?

[shadowhawk2008]

Can some one tell me if there were any revelations about the founding of the Grey Knights?

Not particularly no. And I don't think you are likely to see anything startling any time soon, at least not until the Siege of Terra plays out in the HH series.

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

Can some one tell me if there were any revelations about the founding of the Grey Knights?

No, I was careful to avoid that.

There's one reference, which won't make any sense for a few years yet.

[DDM]

Can some one tell me if there were any revelations about the founding of the Grey Knights?

The one I found that could be a hint was:

Grandmaster Khyron, Founder of the 8th Brotherhood's monument:
"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries. Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it. If you wish to grow wise, learn why brother betray brothers."

This may indicate that Khyron was one of the traitor legion loyalists, with his "treacheries" referring to his betrayal of his primarch and legion. Just a thought.

An an unrelated note, I found it amusing that:

the 13 knights who survived Armageddon were Hyperion, Mal, Enc, and all of the GK special characters except Draigo.

[Wyrmwood]

Kaldor Draigo was suspiciously absent. He also wasn't really relevant to the story, but still quite nice.

[DDM]

Kaldor Draigo was suspiciously absent. He also wasn't really relevant to the story, but still quite nice.

From what I recall, Draigo was not yet a knight when the First War for Armageddon took place.