Tau army strength in the field?

[Rogerio]

Ive been wondering in terms of numbers in the field how many troops the Tau would actually field in a battle??

Say for example the Tau attack an imperial world to take over during the 3rd sphere expansion perhaps, they would get a foothold on the world by means of espionage and diplomacy but then when they actually invaded would they be able to field enough numbers to take over a planet held by the Imperium?

Maybe not a major world with billions in terms of population but a smaller fringe world with a a couple hundred million citizens and a PDF of a 300-500 thousand or so. They would need to field at least 100 thousand troops plus all the auxiliaries to actually take the planet by force possibly more than that.

The question is would they have the means to field armies of hundreds of thousands and a fleet large enough to take over even medium sized worlds by means of force alone?? of course large parts of Tau armies are tied up in drones to take casualties and do the dirty work but still it would take a massive amount to take over an entire planet.

[Stonerhino]

I can't deside if this is actually a serious question.

[Rogerio]

Of course it is, From the fluff ive seen even the largest groupings of Tau troops have been very small, with a Fire caste contingent as listed in the Taros book as being less than 1000 Personnel in total as it consists 749 persons.

A contingent is the 2nd largest fighting formation that the Tau can field, consisting of 3-6 Cadres. The largest they can field is a "Battle" which is described as a grouping of contingents and is the largest that the Tau have ever used in battle before. This to me screams out WTF in terms of numbers. Whereas the Guard send forces of Hundreds of thousands and millions to crush planets and worlds the Tau do not seem to have the manpower for that.

As the background states the way of Tau conquest is to first sweeten the locals with promises of being part of the empire making their job easier and then finishing the job by taking small worlds that have already been swayed.

So yes its a serious question, the Tau empire is a very small one and i havent actually seen any evidence of them being involved in huge battles.

[Rogue Star]

Ive been wondering in terms of numbers in the field how many troops the Tau would actually field in a battle??

The basic Tau force in the field, is a Cadre. There is an example of a Tau Cadre in their Codex, on page22. The number of Cadres they need will vary per battle. Tau however, won't try to match the Imperium body-for-body. It's not how they fight.

The question is would they have the means to field armies of hundreds of thousands and a fleet large enough to take over even medium sized worlds by means of force alone?? of course large parts of Tau armies are tied up in drones to take casualties and do the dirty work but still it would take a massive amount to take over an entire planet.

The answer is yes, because they have to, in the universe GW designed. If we're talking realistically, since we've never seen planetary warfare, logic tells us if the Tau fleet beats the defenders fleet, they can either surrender, or be bombarded with no way to retaliate... but that wouldn't make for a very playable wargame.

[Iron_Lord]

The wars in Deathwatch, between the Tau Velk'Han Sept and the Imperium (and Hive Fleet Dagon) were pretty big. The Imperium committed several billion soldiers to the region.

Not sure if there's any detailed figures for Tau numbers though.

[KingDeath]

Of course it is, From the fluff ive seen even the largest groupings of Tau troops have been very small, with a Fire caste contingent as listed in the Taros book as being less than 1000 Personnel in total as it consists 749 persons.

Imperial estimates regarding the number of tau forces on Taros point to at least 100 cadres with 8000/9000 Firewarriors + about 5000 Kroot auxiliaries (IA3 p.146).
The overal number of Firewarriors avaiable to the Tau Empire can only be guessed but with roughly a hundred worlds to defend as well as the proven ability of the Tau Empire
to ressist ork Whaags, Tyranid invasions as well as a portion of the huge Achilus Crusade we can assume that there are many millions of them.

[Rogerio]

Ok guys thanks, the only background ive actually seen is Taros and the Daemocles bit in the codex and primer, ive read the Ultramarine novel where the Tau invade but it never really says how large the forces are that are fighting!

[Kakapo42]

Are Tau invasion forces small? Yes, when compared to factions like the Imperium Orks and Tyranids.

Is this a hindrance to them? Not at all.

Just because the Tau don't send as many individuals to take over a planet as the Imperial Guard does doesn't mean they can't take one over by force or that they lack the resources to. You have to remember the Tau have a very different strategic and tactical thinking to the Imperium, as well as a very different fighting style. Where the Imperium simply rolls over opponents with an avalanche of sheer force, the Tau use small fast moving forces with heavy firepower to take the enemy apart piece by piece. Where an invasion by the Imperial guard is akin to D-day or Operation Barbarossa, a Tau invasion is more like Desert Storm. Their style of warfare has more in common with that of the Eldar than the Imperium.

Another thing to consider is that while Tau ground forces may be small, they also often employ significant amounts of air support, which could help even things.

If you're looking for more information on the matter i believe some insight can be found in the Tau section of the BRB.

[TheDoctor]

Also, what helps with the fact that they have smaller amounts of troops is their tech level- all the manpower of the Imperial Guard can't do anything when they are getting shot at beyond their maximum effective weapon range. When the guardsmen get close, hop in your flying tanks and fly away.

Also, and I may be wrong about this, but I'm under the impression that the largest battles the tau have fought have been defensive wars.

[Kakapo42]

Also, and I may be wrong about this, but I'm under the impression that the largest battles the tau have fought have been defensive wars.

Not quite, the Tau have been involved in several extremely large battles, such as the war at the place of Union and of course the 1st and 2nd spheres of expansion, all of which were offensive actions. However most information is on the defensive wars they have fought, which gives that impression.

[Xisor]

Kakapo42 is indeed right. The Battle for Tau'n saw dozens of Tau Capital ships making a massive advance against the ork forces holding out in the system that would become Tau'n. To put it lightly, the Tau are capable of fighting on massive scales - it just needs to be worth their while.

If it's not, they don't fight. Unless they're caught out, which probably does happen a little too often...they're not that good, after all, but the Tau Empire is well organised. The whole existence of it is surely geared towards manifest destiny...they've engineered it so they don't have massive swathes of their population sitting about twiddling their thumbs. They can take very serious losses, their infrastructure is dynamic enough.

Well, okay, that's speculative, but it seems reasonable, eh? Makes sense that they can go toe to toe with Necrons and Nids and Imperial Crusades.

Different strengths and MOs, but they can still go toe to toe, just vigorously different numbers at different resolutions.

[MajorWesJanson]

I wonder if Savage Scar has any sort of numbers?

As for numbers per ship, a Manta can carry about 50 troops, 6 battlesuits, some drones, and 4 tanks. Orcas carry similar numbers of troops, but no tanks. Almost certainly there are larger transports available. If BFG gives numbers for mantas and transports aboard, you may be able to get a feel for their troop complements.

[Stonerhino]

Of course it is, From the fluff ive seen even the largest groupings of Tau troops have been very small, with a Fire caste contingent as listed in the Taros book as being less than 1000 Personnel in total as it consists 749 persons.

Are you sure??? I mean we are talking about whether or not a race that has taken on Waaaaghs, Hive Fleets, had their forces divided and stopped am Imperial crusade to whipe out their race.

And you seriously want to know if said race has the military might to attack a highly populated planet.

So yes its a serious question, the Tau empire is a very small one and i havent actually seen any evidence of them being involved in huge battles.

Well then. The contingent that's given as an example in IA3 is not a template for all contingent. The Air Caste Cadre that's not pictured there has a pair of Mantas, 4 Tigarsharks and 10 Barracuda. Where as the Codex says that a typical contingent is roughly the size of an IG regiment. 749 Tau + 2 flying titans, a bomber group and fighter support is roughly the same size as the IG mechanized regiment example given in IA3 (3,000+ guardsmen), right next to the Tau's contingents.

Think about it like this:
The Imperium of Man cannot spare the amount of force necessary to destroy the Tau.

If the Tau lacked the military might to attack a single highly populated world. Don't you think that the IoM would have gathered up a few PDFs laying around and conqured the Tau already???

[chriscrowing]

I'd say the Tau would be massively outnumbered by the IG but that is why they have a built in tendency towards shoot & move and their fluff makes great play of the fact that they'll avoid sieges, wars of attrition etc. and seeks to out manouver their opponents, unlike the IG who just love throwing up siege lines and going kill for kill in a meat grinder.

The Tau's entire ethos is that Tau lives are a priority, hence liking to strike from a distance with accuracy and moving before the opposition can bring numbers to bear.

The Tau also aren't interested in taking over Hive worlds unless those worlds WANT to join the Empire - that's too much like hard work and subjugation, which isn't in line with the greater good. More likely they'll go after small worlds, traders, famers and things like that - folks who'll probably see them as less demanding overlords than the distant Imperium anyway.

The point made above about the apparent air superiority of the Air Caste is a valid one - if you're conquering worlds and you've won the space battle...

[Rogerio]

Some really good stuff in here chaps, appreciate the feedback as i havent seen all the Tau background stuff and its good to see what others think about the subject.

The whole reason i really like the Tau are the reasons that have been listed by many in here, the way they wage war is one that i can relate to the most as on the board i really dont like my models being killed! (silly i know) and the resemblance to modern warfare methods are really interesting.

[The Devourer]

The Tau aren't as outnumber as people always seem to think. Compared to the imperium the Tau empire is tiny however they aren't fighting the entire IoM. As Stonerhino said the Tau are fully capable of holding their own against the worst of the 41st millenium. The Tau are much more densely populated and all their forces are focused on a single area of space. Compare Tau space to an equally sized area of imperial space and the Tau probably have a higher military strength since their society is so focused on output and effeciency. While Tau tend to deploy in less numbers than IG this isn't because they can't, it's because they don't fight with that style. Tau don't accept high losses like the IG so don't need as many guys on the ground- they are about hitting where it counts rather than a continuous pounding. If you read about some of the battles where the Tau are fightig under less optimal conditions (such as against the nids) the numbers of troops can be very large.

[Lord-Caerolion]

Well, they're holding out for now, because everybody else has worse things trying to destroy them. The only reason the Tau defeated the Crusade is because the troops got withdrawn to fight in more vital warzones. They're just big enough to be a threat, yet just small enough to not really have to worry about.

[Stonerhino]

The crusade was stalled on Dal'yth. And it was only when Inquisitor Kryptman called the forces back. Was the crusade able to pull out saving face. And by the Tau letting them go the IoM did not Exterminatus the Sept world. So to say that the crusade was stopped because the forces where needed somewhere else is not entirely true.

And as a result of the Crusade the Tau developed actual warships. First the Hero class cruiser. Then whole new genation warships. Also the Tau develpoed the Tigershark-1-x to counter the IoM's Titans. And if I remember correctly the rail rifle was purpose made to kill marines. Not as a direct counter but as a need to be able to take out heavy infantry and rushed into field testing.

[Lord-Caerolion]

True, true. The Imperium would also have brought in more reinforcements though. It wasn't as clear cut as "the Tau would have lost pretty soon, if not for the Crusade being recalled", but the Tau simply don't have the ability to stand up to the Imperium on a large scale.

[Xisor]

True, true. The Imperium would also have brought in more reinforcements though. It wasn't as clear cut as "the Tau would have lost pretty soon, if not for the Crusade being recalled", but the Tau simply don't have the ability to stand up to the Imperium on a large scale.

Not quite. Andy Hoare's Rogue Trader books go to some lengths to account for this and do so plausibly.

1- The Crusade is vastly smaller than what was actually requested/needed
2- The Tau were much more potent than expected

The idea was that the Crusade would steam-roller through them and that'd be that. What actually happened was a brief tour of steam-rollering against nonsense agri-worlds, then the first serious place they come up against, Dal'yth, holds them fast. The Crusade can't be easily reinforced as they're already under-supplied and had to cross the Damocles Gulf, an act which is both time and resource consuming.

Looking at the stalemate in that light, the Tau only have more forces to arrive, and likely more quickly too. The Imperium's reinforcements are not only far away, but face a monumental difficulty in getting there...and shouldn't really be needed in the first place.

Whilst it could go either way, the Tau easily have the upper hand in the short-term view of the future. In the long-term...the Imperium simply cannot afford to muster the forces needed to properly, decisively and without massive risks annihilate the Tau (as per:the Index Xenos: "If indeed such a thing is still possible").

Tau are still tiny scale, but on the otherhand, they could probably give the Calixis Sector or the eight (modern?) worlds Ultramar a very serious run for their money.