Tau army strength in the field?

[ManOfRust]

Dolumar IV was never noted in the game as being a Hive World.

I will concede that Hiveworld was not referenced as such in Fire Warrior, but it did look impressively built up from low-orbit on the way out - and a cityscape visible from an escape trajectory seemed a good sign at the time. As the only example to mind it seemed worth contributing, even if the source is described as mediocre by generous critics.

I might also have been a leeeetle flippant in my suggestion with regards to a Space Marine Legion, no such collective force from the IoM could have threatened the Tau at any point in their Empire's history. My proposition was simply to put a force in the field that everyone could agree the Tau would be un-able to match by military means so that we could work down from there. I havn't heard anyone say otherwise just yet.

Less than 500 years before the Damocles Gulf, Lord Solar Macharius launched a crusade that conquered a thousand worlds - would he have done very much worse if he had aimed his crusade towards the Eastern Fringes?

[Bonzai]

The Imperium forces thought that the Tau were some small 2-5 system-governing species, not a 200-500 systems-empire with lots of alien subjects.

Actually... I thought that the Tau Empire contained only 20 or so systems (Septs), and about 100 small colonies. I know I've read that some where...

Actually makes them seem quite tiny when compared to the 1,000,000 worlds of the the IoM, but I suspect that's the point, lol.

[Dhurrin]

Actually... I thought that the Tau Empire contained only 20 or so systems (Septs), and about 100 small colonies. I know I've read that some where...

Actually makes them seem quite tiny when compared to the 1,000,000 worlds of the the IoM, but I suspect that's the point, lol.

If I recall correctly a Sept can be more than one system.

And the populations in the septs run the same gamut as the Imperium, from small outposts to full thriving worlds.

[Deadnight]

Your underplaying the numbers slightly. In the Damocles Crusade there where around 500 marines (5 provisional companies per lexi and 40k wiki). So about half the strength of Ultramarine crusade era company. Then in the Ziest campain there where nearly 1,000 marines deployed. The Tau stood no chance against a near Chapter worth of Marines deployed against Augura.

(1) it was written by matt ward.
(2) iirc, didnt the tau retreat from something like a dozen recently conquered systems in the zeist campaign? Now, fair enough. the tau would suck if you were talking about 12 systems of the scale of vior'la. 1000 marines killing billions upon billions of fire warriors? meh, wardian for sure, but i think it lacks credibility. but what if those conquered systems were empty, uninhabited systems populated by the equivelant of a Shell service station and a McDonalds on a floating rock? It would explain why the tau were so happy to abandon so much territory please remember, zeist was written by Ward, for marine fanboys. as much of the codex is overblown propaganda as it is "fact". heck, the marines were probably glad they could write home with an epic tale of conquest and heroics to stir the hearts and minds of those at home, and make them all the braver to stand against the hordes of enemies beseiging, well, every other place in the imperium. "Pacificed a world", and "conquered in the name of the holy Throne" grabs more column inches that "nuked a petrol station" and "we landed on a rock, kicked about for a while but no one was there... so we put our flag on the rock and called it ours. woo".

Less than 500 years before the Damocles Gulf, Lord Solar Macharius launched a crusade that conquered a thousand worlds - would he have done very much worse if he had aimed his crusade towards the Eastern Fringes?

considering the ramifications of such a course of action, the eldar would have intervened, and engineered the greatest ork waaagh! to date to come crashing into the macharian crusade. either that or kill macharius himself...

remember too, while he "conquered" a thousand worlds, he didnt do a very good job of it. wasnt centuries of war required to fully pacify the area after he died? Sounds very much to me that Macharius came along, saw a world, and wrote a report that it belonged to the imperium, got himself a shiny medal, and moved on to the next planet without thinking much beyond that :P

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

remember too, while he "conquered" a thousand worlds, he didnt do a very good job of it. wasnt centuries of war required to fully pacify the area after he died? Sounds very much to me that Macharius came along, saw a world, and wrote a report that it belonged to the imperium, got himself a shiny medal, and moved on to the next planet without thinking much beyond that :P

As I recall it was his generals who, after his death, seceeded from the Imperium with various amounts of territory and were eventually pacified. The actual planets may have been pacified much like they usually are by the Imperium but the generals could easily deceive the population in what cause they were fighting if it was necessary. Macharius was pretty much based on Alexander the Great whose empire fractured after his death, four new empires ruled by former generals I think.

[Bonzai]

This thread has got me thinking. Has there been anything published describing the realative demographics of a tau sept? Are the populations of each caste roughly equal? From a logic standpoint, you would think that the Earth Caste would be the most numerous, seeing that they are responsible for ALL industry. Then would come the Fire Cast, as they are constantly fighting. After that though, it kind of gets odd. Air caste are supposedly so adapted for space fairing, that they have a hard time in normal gravity. Just how many ships do the tau have for this caste to live on? By the same token, just how many diplomats do the tau need? Granted, they are also traders and merchants, so not as specialized. The Etherials I imagine to be the rarest, probably comprising less than a tenth of the overall population. Has there been anything published that touched on this?

[SomeRandomEvilGuy]

Are the populations of each caste roughly equal?

While I haven't seen anything on it, I would suggest that the Ethereal Caste dictates the relative populations of each Caste, but I wouldn't like to guess at numbers. Assuming the Ethereals are also the adminstrators of the Tau Empire (who forms the bureaucracy?), they could have a surprisingly high population considering they are also the leaders.

[Bonzai]

Just a quick follow up on my question. What I am getting at, is that if we knew this information, we could roughly extrapolate the fighting strength of a given population. For example, if a Sept had a population of 4 billion Tau, and the Fire Cast accounts for roughly 25% of the population, then we know that there are about a billion Fire Cast. Of that, we can write off probably half that as being not involved in the military. The young, the Elderly, the injured, and various services. After all, these aren't just soldiers, but a sub species.

So that leaves about 500,000,000 Fire Cast members to draw from. In a modern army it takes a ratio of about 8 support staff for every soldier. In the Tau's case it is probably much higher than that. There is no medical caste, communications caste, fast food caste, etc... So it is probably all done in house. When something needs to be built, they call in the Earth Caste, and transportation is taken care of. Other than that they seem like they are pretty much on their own. The staff to soldier ratio could be 1,000-1 for all we know. A million fire warriors for a population of 4 billion? Does that sound about right?

[Lupe]

50% Fire caste not involved in the military? That seems a hell of a lot for what is specifically stated to be the Warrior caste. Aside from the children, the rest of the individuals are still military staff, even if some happen to be on non-combat duty (higher command echelons, military academy staff, research consultants embedded with the Earth caste, bodyguard duties, etc).

The support staff would come from the other Castes. Medics, engineers and such are Earth caste. Communications technicians, air support and orbital surveillance fall to the Air caste. Supply haulers, cooks, quartermasters are Water caste. Medevac staff comes from the appropriate caste, depending on whether it's done via air or land. Not to mention the bucketload of specialized drones that would be swarming around base camp doing the more menial stuff.

The Kroot and the Vespid contingents would probably be responsible for much of their logistics. Their anatomy and metabolisms differ greatly from the Tau's, so at the very least they'd be responsible for supplying their own troops with suitable food and supplies, maybe medical support as well.

[Kaapeli]

There is no medical caste, communications caste, fast food caste, etc...

Fluff says Earth caste are the labourers and scientists. Food industry, infastructure (inc. services like telecommunications and logistics) and medicine (medical science) should belong to the Earth caste.

A combat medic would likely be from Fire caste but the doctors and nurses would be Earth. Food services for the military would be handled by Earth, logistics by Air and Earth. Fire caste would also employ Water for administration and military intelligence.

[Deadnight]

Just a quick follow up on my question. What I am getting at, is that if we knew this information, we could roughly extrapolate the fighting strength of a given population. For example, if a Sept had a population of 4 billion Tau, and the Fire Cast accounts for roughly 25% of the population, then we know that there are about a billion Fire Cast. Of that, we can write off probably half that as being not involved in the military. The young, the Elderly, the injured, and various services. After all, these aren't just soldiers, but a sub species.

the majority of a fire warriors life is spent fighting. their youth is relatively quick, and they dont really suffer decades of unproductive old age like us. beyond40 or 50, old age rapidly sets in, quickly followed by death. In terms of injuries, tau have bionics. losing a hand, eye, or foot? meh. upgrade. shell shock and mental trauma (as in the case of some suit pilots) seems to occur, but for a sub species pre-conditioned to war, and for whom every waking moment is geared towards war, i think they're capable of dealing with it for the most part.

So that leaves about 500,000,000 Fire Cast members to draw from. In a modern army it takes a ratio of about 8 support staff for every soldier. In the Tau's case it is probably much higher than that. There is no medical caste, communications caste, fast food caste, etc... So it is probably all done in house. When something needs to be built, they call in the Earth Caste, and transportation is taken care of. Other than that they seem like they are pretty much on their own. The staff to soldier ratio could be 1,000-1 for all we know. A million fire warriors for a population of 4 billion? Does that sound about right?

drones do a lot of the mundane tasks, not fire warriors. the other castes would fill in for liasoning duties. your quartermaster? wouldnt surprise me if a water caste Shas'Por'O exists (just as aunshi's rank was "shas'aun'shi" due to the esteem the fire warriors held him in) a million fire warriors out of a billion as active soldiers? by our standards, that seems fair. except (a) these are aliens, and (b) this is 40k. does "there is only war" ring a bell? seems to suggest lots of fighting. higher numbers of soldiers can only be a good thing under those circumstances

[ManOfRust]

this is 40k. does "there is only war" ring a bell? seems to suggest lots of fighting. higher numbers of soldiers can only be a good thing under those circumstances

I agree for the most part, but as someone pointed out earlier - the Fire Caste is not just the Army (pointing guns and running around madly) but also a seperate sub-species that needs to sustain it's own numbers. Tau don't appear to be as productive as Orks or even humans and even though they do try to avoid costly battles, this is the 41st millenium - loss is the name of the game. Even if they could put a huge percentage of their Fire Caste population in the field, they probably wouldn't as disastrous losses would cripple them until the population could recover or more Fire Caste could brought in from other Septs.

One of the genuinely frightening things about humanity (certainly as seen from the perspective of 40k) is that ANYONE in the human race is potentially a threat, when the grox-dung hits the rotary impeller, women, children and amputees all rush to the lasguns, sharp sticks or anything else and get fighting. This is nicely presented in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, Sabbat Martyr (?) where unarmed pilgrims are inspired to turn on the massed hordes of Chaos with their bare hands.

Whilst there are instances in the fluff where Earth Caste or Water Caste take up weapons I very much doubt that it is with anything like the enthusiasm that the average blood-maddened human civilian can muster, with a smile on their face and a prayer on their lips!

[Connor MacLeod]

That's presumably one reason the tau have auxiliaries. The tau method of fighting is rather specialised, so they need other forces to supplement both their numbers and their own fighting style with others (EG, adding the Kroot). Tau-loyal humans would confer the same essential benefits to the tau empire that they do to humanity (as well as the drawbacks.)

It's probably better to compare Tau forces to IG elites (like storm troopers or Grenadiers or drop troopers) rather than comparing them to the basic IG troopers. The basic troops are more likely to be the auxilaries.

[Grubnar]

... One of the genuinely frightening things about humanity (certainly as seen from the perspective of 40k) is that ANYONE in the human race is potentially a threat, when the grox-dung hits the rotary impeller, women, children and amputees all rush to the lasguns, sharp sticks or anything else and get fighting. This is nicely presented in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, Sabbat Martyr (?) where unarmed pilgrims are inspired to turn on the massed hordes of Chaos with their bare hands.

In the Soviet Union everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, fought the nazi invaders!

[Lupe]

One of the genuinely frightening things about humanity (certainly as seen from the perspective of 40k) is that ANYONE in the human race is potentially a threat, when the grox-dung hits the rotary impeller, women, children and amputees all rush to the lasguns, sharp sticks or anything else and get fighting. This is nicely presented in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts books, Sabbat Martyr (?) where unarmed pilgrims are inspired to turn on the massed hordes of Chaos with their bare hands.

And where

Caffran is killed by a frightened child whom he was actually trying to help. And I doubt a blue xeno invader would be a more soothing presence for startled collaterals

[Col. Tartleton]

Tau vs IG is like putting a battalion of modern air cavalry against a Division of WW1 soldiers with period armor support. Which is not to say the Imperial Guard is backwards, they're far in advance of our modern military by and large. The Tau just fight with totally different tactics and strategies.

[ManOfRust]

Tau vs IG is like putting a battalion of modern air cavalry against a Division of WW1 soldiers with period armor support. Which is not to say the Imperial Guard is backwards, they're far in advance of our modern military by and large. The Tau just fight with totally different tactics and strategies.

I guess ultimately the answer to the question is going to be "The smallest force that they can get away with".

The Tau operate on a high efficiency/high investment policy for their armed forces, to use more troops than they need to is wasteful and waste is definitely NOT for the Greater Good. Why use 20 Crisis teams if you can get away with 6 and send the rest to fight 2 other engagements? Why send 20 into a battle that you might lose 10 in when you can retreat and fight a battle later in which you'll lose only 2 for the same victory?

If you believe the fluff then no Fire Warrior would ever step onto his Manta without knowing exactly how they were going to win the engagement. Of course it doesn't always work out that way, the Tau can be decieved just like anyone else and are still not greatly experienced in the catalogue of horrors that is the 41st millenium (especially when it comes to downright sneaky humans, who wasn't impressed when Colonel Schaeffer assassinated a Tau leader before half the Tau's human mercenaries turned on them?).

Could the WWI Tommy's catch the Iraq War Marines with their pants down? Extremely unlikely but not impossible - if terrain, local experience and restricted supplies(on the air-cav) outweighed the massive advantages of superior weaponry, longer strike range and tactical comms. Even just by waiting for them to exhaust the fuel for their shiny helicopters. They certainly would not achieve victory by marching towards the enemy in file any more than the Tau would win by sending a Hunter Cadre to face a Tyrannid swarm-wall head on. Only Space Marines are that dense.

If the Tau had it their own way they would take a force with more than enough manpower, supplies and support to defeat whatever opponent they faced, if they didn't have all three in sufficient quantities then they would have to have the freedom to fall back outside of their enemies reach. If they couldn't do that then something has gone terribly wrong!