Tau army strength in the field?

[Clockwork-Knight]

The Imperium forces thought that the Tau were some small 2-5 system-governing species, not a 200-500 systems-empire with lots of alien subjects.

[Stonerhino]

As to not be confused. Tau vs IoM is a non-issue. The IoM would squash the Tau under it's weight.

The problem is that the IoM cannot divert the forces needed to accomplish this without weakening another fight they are having somewhere else. And the delay has only been helping the Tau become stronger. Especially against the IoM.

Think about the Tau like a disease the IoM is trying to get rid of. But instead of using the correct medicine dosage, they are using way to little. And while it kills of some. It really just makes what survives more resistant to that method of killing it.

The Damocles Gulf Crusade, only served to show the Iom that they under estimated the Tau and the Tau where they needed to improve their military. The problem with this is that now for a post "Damocles Gulf Crusade" crusade to be successful. They will not only need to bring a larger force to compensate for the under estimation. But also bring extra forces to compensate for the Tau become more efficent at defeating them.

The best example of this is the world of Augura. It took elements from 9 different Space Marine Chapters to get the world back from the Tau. Almost double the amout of Marines that went with the Damocles Crusade.

[mdman1]

I hope this doesn't count as necro'ing the thread but I'd like to point out that in the Last Chancers' trilogy when Kage told the Tau fire warrior that where he came from there were individual hive cities which had higher populations than the worlds the Tau were conquering, the fire warrior was clearly disbelieving. I think this is rather important since it might indicate the Tau don't have the numbers to take a ridiculously large Imperial world. Are there any instances of Tau attacking Hive worlds?

[Lupe]

I hope this doesn't count as necro'ing the thread but I'd like to point out that in the Last Chancers' trilogy when Kage told the Tau fire warrior that where he came from there were individual hive cities which had higher populations than the worlds the Tau were conquering, the fire warrior was clearly disbelieving. I think this is rather important since it might indicate the Tau don't have the numbers to take a ridiculously large Imperial world. Are there any instances of Tau attacking Hive worlds?

They probably do have the strength for that, provided they don't do it too often...

It'd say it's not the population figures themselves that are baffling, but the logistics behind supporting that population within a single city. The average fire warrior, with limited contact with the Imperium, would probably try to picture that many people living in an environment similar to the other human worlds he'd fought on...

[Dhurrin]

I hope this doesn't count as necro'ing the thread but I'd like to point out that in the Last Chancers' trilogy when Kage told the Tau fire warrior that where he came from there were individual hive cities which had higher populations than the worlds the Tau were conquering, the fire warrior was clearly disbelieving. I think this is rather important since it might indicate the Tau don't have the numbers to take a ridiculously large Imperial world. Are there any instances of Tau attacking Hive worlds?

What you also have to remember is that the Empire does not fight like the Imperium. The Imperium steamrolls over the opponent, losing thousands of men in the process, and then takes and hold. The Empire does not. They will do hit and run attacks on hive cities, drawing the forces further out frm the city, spreading them thin and taking them out bit by bit. Guerilla warfare. Combine this with their extensive support system for each cadre and they don't need large numbers to take a hive world... Well not as many as the Imperium.

[Stonerhino]

Hive Worlds are largely not self sustaining. The Tau would attack the supplies for the city and let it desend into chaos (lower case chaos not Chaos). Once terms are agreed on the Tau would come in and restore order.

I'd like to point out that in the Last Chancers' trilogy when Kage told the Tau fire warrior that where he came from there were individual hive cities which had higher populations than the worlds the Tau were conquering, the fire warrior was clearly disbelieving.

It is a good point untill you realise that the Fire Warrior would not know what conditions the lower level of society would live. In his eyes, he would picture the living arrangements to be simular to what he had already seen. Not the grueling hellhole of the underhive.

Think about it like this:
New York city has a population of just over 8 million, the Earth has a population of 7 billion. Imagine a New York city style city but with 1,000X the population. Either it would have to cover so much area or the buildings would have to imposibly tall. Either way it's almost imposible to do without actually seeing it done.

So it's more of a case where one simply does not have the correct information to understand what's being said properly.

[ForgottenLore]

Hive Worlds are largely not self sustaining. The Tau would attack the supplies for the city and let it desend into chaos (lower case chaos not Chaos). Once terms are agreed on the Tau would come in and restore order.

And likely be hailed as saviors by the bulk of the (surviving) populace for bringing in needed food and medical supplies, since most people would probably be unaware that they were the cause of the shortages in the first place. That is a VERY Tau way to do things.

[Rogerio]

And likely be hailed as saviors by the bulk of the (surviving) populace for bringing in needed food and medical supplies, since most people would probably be unaware that they were the cause of the shortages in the first place. That is a VERY Tau way to do things.

Agreed, that is a great idea actually. The only thing i think of is when the Imperium counter attacks with a crusade of several million Imperial Guard and tens of thousands of tanks how they could actually stop them, i just dont think it would be possible for them to do it without the entire empire sending massive forces to wade into the battle.

[ManOfRust]

I recall the Tau do invade an Imperial Hive World in the Fire Warrior computer game, although it was pretty dire circumstances all around. StoneRhino's way is much better.

1000 Fire Warriors defeat 10,000 Imperial Guard the same way 100 Space Marines defeat 10 million traitor PDF - by not fighting them all at once or even at all.

The Tau don't fight a losing battle and they don't accept casualties if they can possibly be avoided. Their aim is to win after all, to destroy those who fight and convince the rest not to resist.

The difference is that Space Marines don't mind dropping straight into the greatest concentrations of enemy force, crushing the enemy leadership and slaughtering any civilians unlucky enough to be in the area. Survivors pick up the pieces and teach their descendents to learn from the experience. Tau destroy the military strengths in manageable chunks but prefer to make fighting against them unpopular, impractical or too costly. Enemies worth absorbing into the Empire are subverted by economic or social pressures.

[ForgottenLore]

Agreed, that is a great idea actually. The only thing i think of is when the Imperium counter attacks with a crusade of several million Imperial Guard and tens of thousands of tanks how they could actually stop them, i just dont think it would be possible for them to do it without the entire empire sending massive forces to wade into the battle.

Well, assuming the Imperium could actually manage to put together a sizable counter attack to retake the world, the Tau would now have the hive world's PDF forces and defense emplacements, since they essentially converted the planet before occupying it.

Should that prove insufficient, the Tau would fall back and let the Imperium "reclaim" the world, cue massive oppression and purgings from the Inquisition for defecting in the first place, sending the populace even more into the Tau camp. Then, when imperial will has moved on, and the garrison troops a gradually recalled to fight on other fronts, the Tau can move back in, with even more popular support.

[Lupe]

The Imperium can not afford to throw too much of its military might against the Tau Empire, because it's beset on all sides by far, far worse enemies

The Damocles Gulf Crusade was just that... a large scale Imperial Crusade, backed by dozens of Imperial Guard regiments, and quite a few Space marine chapters. It wasn't the resounding victory the Imperium was looking for, and it certainly didn't wipe out the upstart xenos, so I'd wager that the Tau handled fairly well in that instance. Granted, if another crusade of this scale were to be mounted within the next generation, I doubt the Tau could survive it with anything close to an Empire left... But here's the thing... The Tau can weather the storm for a generation or so, but it would take the Imperium a century at the least (and I'm being generous here) to mount another offensive at a similar scale...

[Dhurrin]

I would say that the Tau would be able to push back an Imperial Crusade the same size and the Damcoles one. The fact that they stopped the crusade in it's tracks before the Imperium had to pull out speaks volumes. And IIRC in the Tau Empire codex and/or the Death Watch books it states that the Tau developed several new technologies/ships/tanks/tactics to use against the Imperium from what they learned from the Damocles Crusade. If anything, the Tau would do even better than last time.

[Clockwork-Knight]

The Damocles Gulf Crusade was just that... a large scale Imperial Crusade, backed by dozens of Imperial Guard regiments, and quite a few Space marine chapters. It wasn't the resounding victory the Imperium was looking for, and it certainly didn't wipe out the upstart xenos, so I'd wager that the Tau handled fairly well in that instance. Granted, if another crusade of this scale were to be mounted within the next generation, I doubt the Tau could survive it with anything close to an Empire left... But here's the thing... The Tau can weather the storm for a generation or so, but it would take the Imperium a century at the least (and I'm being generous here) to mount another offensive at a similar scale...

An offensive as pathetically tiny like the damocles crusade would be total waste of ressources against the Tau. The damocles crusade didn't even really put the Tau in danger. In fact, after they successfully halted the Imperium's assault on Dalyth, they managed to learn much about the technology of the Imperium, causing them to get more advanced and better equipped to deal with the Imperium again.
It will need a decisively larger force to really hurt the Tau.

[ManOfRust]

Lets be honest though, it would only take a single Astartes Legion of the Great Crusade era to utterly crush the Tau Empire and conquer every Sept and world in it. I would even go so far as to say that it wouldn't even matter which one it was - ANY Legion could do it, the flavour would be in how each of the Emperor's Sons would do it and how long it would take...

[Clockwork-Knight]

Nobody cares about the ancient legions, because they don't exist anymore.

[Stonerhino]

Lets be honest though, it would only take a single Astartes Legion of the Great Crusade era to utterly crush the Tau Empire and conquer every Sept and world in it. I would even go so far as to say that it wouldn't even matter which one it was - ANY Legion could do it, the flavour would be in how each of the Emperor's Sons would do it and how long it would take...

You do realise that the IoM only has about half the military strength it had during the Great Crusade. It also lacks the cross branch cooperation and leadership skills.

20X100,000=2 million marines, pre HH
1,000X1,000=1 million marines, 40k

You also have to remember that you are saying that if the IoM sent 100 space marine chapters, multiple segmentums worth of Imperial Navy ships, supporting IG and Titans they could wipe out the Tau. To put it in perspective. The IoM sent roughly 17,500 space marines (Space Wolves make accurate numbers impossible) with the above support in the eye of terror campain. You are talking about a crusade at least 5 times that size. A feet that the IoM cannot do and is a kin to saying "If the IoM could use it's entire military might the Tau would be doomed". It's not an untrue statement but one that might as well be. Because putting together such a force would doom them because of the losses they would take when they leave huge areas of the empire virtually unguarded.

[Lord Damocles]

I recall the Tau do invade an Imperial Hive World in the Fire Warrior computer game, although it was pretty dire circumstances all around. StoneRhino's way is much better.

Dolumar IV was never noted in the game as being a Hive World.

[Xisor]

If we were to look at the Damocles Crusade as analogous to a... rubbish Expedition Fleet of the GC era, it's interesting to speculate how a post-Damocles Tau Empire would respond to a GC-era escalation: it's easy to assume that it'd require the arrival of a Primarch... but I'd wager that'd take a serious escalation. Barely a company or so of Space Marines fought in the DC, if we were to escalate that to a Company of Crusade Ultramarines, or a Chapter of the Dark Angels of the era, you'd be looking at a Thousand Space Marines, plus army support and critical things like: iterators, diplomats, traders etc.

To put it lightly, both the Imperium and the Tau Empire would have a massive cataclysm of, well, upping their game. I think there'd be a magnificent story in that, in seeing the propaganda war, the escalation of forces, the back and forth. I'm almost certain the Tau'd loose - they could never escalate as far as the Imperium could/would. But then again, we know in 40k from some of the BFG articles and discussions that it was thought acceptable to suggest that the Eldar, or factions therein, do indeed have a rather overt fondness for the Tau Empire and it's continued survival. The original CPF article alleged the Eldar diverted Waaaagh! Snagrod to avoid the Tau Empire, for example.

To me, I find it really fascinating. The idea for how the Tau'd convert a hive world (appearing as liberating saviours and, in all likelihood... being liberating saviours [at least from an 'improve the conditions of your life' style, the smart and sassy underhiver might not be so appreciative as the mook or the dreg]), seeing how they go about engaging war (minimise 'idle' assets, e.g. no 'random populace', everyone geared for 'Improving the Empire'), their choice and flexibility in deploying for combat, the integration of their forces and so forth.

Well, to put it simply, it's bloody interesting. It's a slightly flaw I find in a few pieces of the latest Tau lore (mainly the non-H&B shorts from Black Library), that the speculative and inventive side of the Tau background is somewhat ignored in favour of them being a... not a generic enemy, but an undersold idea. There's an immense depth for speculative fiction to them, but making it character driven is possibly a big difficulty - the difference between good Space Marine fiction and passable/forgettable Space Marine fiction is probably true for the Tau. Decent Tau fiction will, surely, take into account that... otherness of them. Forgettable stuff will trample over it in favour of showcasing some odd little point. The best will have the best of all angles, invariably.

(Though 'lesser' stuff is still interesting - not all fiction needs to be supremely brilliant to be enjoyable!)

As a caveat in the other direction, I'm rather looking forward to more BL Tau fiction, the touches given in H&B in the last year or so have been... most compelling.

[Stonerhino]

Your underplaying the numbers slightly. In the Damocles Crusade there where around 500 marines (5 provisional companies per lexi and 40k wiki). So about half the strength of Ultramarine crusade era company. Then in the Ziest campain there where nearly 1,000 marines deployed. The Tau stood no chance against a near Chapter worth of Marines deployed against Augura.

So it's not like the Tau have not fought against very groupings of space marines. It's just that when the space marines win it's "Look how great the space marines are" and when the Tau win it's "Oh but the IoM didn't deploy enough stuff".

For all their technology, their battlesuits and their weaponry, the Tau could not hope to prevail against such an assemblage of might - it is doubtful that any foe could have

We all know that there are many forces out there that have had this many and more marines deployed against them and not get destroyed. So the statement is just hyperbole to promote space marines more.

Even after the Ziest campain. The Space marines couldn't launch an attack against the Tau because the IoM could not spare them. There will eventually come a time when the IoM will send out an extinction level crusade against the Tau. It's even hinted in the Tyranid codex that post Gorgon is the largest battle between the Tau and IoM. A codex writen by Crudance who is rumored to be redoing the Tau. Lets all hope for some new info and maybe a look at what it would take for the IoM to really threaten the Tau existance.

[flota]

its even worthed to capture a hive world?

seriously the tau would have to deal with millions if not billions of humans, i dont mean in the battlefield but as a HUGE problem after conquest, most hive worlds are polluted wastelands bare of anything useful (humans are a resource for the imperium), it would be a losing situation in the end for the tau... but they could use the expendable humans in war as the imperium does, thats the only gain i see from a hive world