Codex Lizardmen (almost finished but needs feedback)

[Fear is the mind killer]

Ever since I read the back of the old codex Necrons I've wanted an army of lizardmen in 40k. I drafted up a conversion for them many years ago back when GW had its own forums and folks seemed to like it. Now I've actually bought the models (My mage-priest Lord Frogonaroq has been the subject of much amusement to the family) and have done a much more thorough translation than the one before, complete with rules for magical weapons and magical lores. Unfortunately I'm terrible at special characters, and find costing them to be quite tricky. I've spent a long time with this particular dex as it is one that I intend to use once it's been fine-tuned by you, the great unwa.. I mean, fine fellow game-tweakers. Could you please have a look at what I've made so far and give some feedback on what you would change (besides the presentation of the website as I know it needs work but that has to wait until I have the time/money to make it pretty), it would be very much appreciated: http://40kdirectorscut.wordpress.com...a-codex-slann/

If I can get the hang of special characters the plan is to do the same to other WHFB books as some of my friends have requested 40k translations for themselves of their favourite WHFB army. Personally I just like the imagery of magic versus tanks and would love to face off against a necron army with my army of indigo dinosaurs (I already have plans to name a carnosaur Barr'ni).

[Ambience 327]

I have always been a fan of the Lizardmen - they are one of my two favorite Fantasy factions. As such, I find this very interesting. I have read through the rules twice now, and have included all of my commentary below. I refrained from discussing points costs or potential balance issues for now as I feel a lot of what I have to say needs correctd before those issues can even begin to be addressed.

Please note that none of this is meant in a negative way. As you can see from my signature line, I have done quite a bit of home-brewing of rules myself, and I know how much effort goes into putting something like this together. (If you are so inclined, feel free to take a look at, and comment on, any of my Codex lists which may interest you.) All of my comments are meant to be constructive. If you need further clarification on anything, let me know and I will go into more detail.

That said, on with the flogging...


Rank and File is very clunky, due to being a very foreign mechanic to the 40K ruleset as it is a skirmish game.

1) What happens to the formation when they launch an assault, or are charged? Following the normal procedure for charging or reacting to a charge would most likely break up the formation. Do they keep the bonuses if they are no longer ranked up but were at the start of the phase?

2) What exactly are the bonus "additional wounds"? Is it for combat resolution only, or are these actual wounds which must be saved against? If they are actual wounds, is it a per-model thing (i.e. each model attacking gains bonus wounds based on the ranks) or just a basic bonus to the total wounds caused? When are they caused? (At what initiative step?) Are the bonuses based on ranks existing at the start of the combat, at the initiative step they occur, or at combat resolution?

3) How exactly do "attacks to the side" and "attacks to the rear" affect this bonus? This obviously depends greatly on the answers to question 2. Is it enough that models be in base contact to the side or rear of the formation, or do they actually have to attack first to remove the bonus? (And so is the bonus still in effect if it occurs before enemy models with lower I).


In regards to "Channelling" - What happens if the model being channelled to is in range of something like a Psychic Hood, but not the Mage Priest? RAW would say the Psychic Hood is innefective, but I would think RAI would be that it would work. Also, I humbly suggest that a Perils attack should affect the target of the "channelling" instead of or in addition to the Mage Priest.


In regards to the Magical Lores:

1) Many powers could do with a clarification on when they are usable. Basically any of the non-shooting effects should tell you when you can use them. For example, when you use Flamewall can have a huge impact on how it plays out. If it is used at the start of the turn, it will affect your own units' movement, shooting and assaults. If used in the Movement Phase it will affect your own units' shooting and assaults. If used during the shooting phase, it will only affect your own units assaults (assuming you use it at the end of the shooting phase). There are many other powers where this is true. (For example - if Feral Rage is cast at the start of the turn, it will work as seemingly intended, but if you can cast it during the Movement phase, you can side-step the Rage issue by casting it after the target unit moves.)

2) Many powers could do with a clarification of how long they last. For example, how long do the effects of Transmutation of Lead, Pha's Protection, Solar Flare or Awakening of the Earth last?

3) Can Plague of Rust or other "permanent" powers affect a target more than once per game?

4) Can Savage Beast, Wyssan's Wildform or other similar powers affect a unit more than once in the same turn? Can they stack with each other?

5) The assault move section of the "Speed of Light" power is a bit vague. What constitutes "the same direction" - i.e. how far off can it be? Also, the unit in question didn't make a "normal move", it made a special move to any point on the table within line of sight. Finally, "within line of sight" of who? The caster? The moving unit? Both?

6) What happens to a unit in the path of a piece of terrain moved by Landshift?

7) Does Pit of Shades allow any kind of saves? The AP2 would suggest that Invulnerable and/or Cover Saves might be allowed, but the "remove as casualties" part suggests they may not be. Also, what happens to vehicles hit by this power?

8) Are saves of any kind allowed against wounds caused by Spirit Leech?


How long does the "Stunning" effect from Magical weapons last?


How does the "Tearing" effect work? Are wounds doubled before or after saves are taken?


Terradons counting as Jetbikes just feels wrong. Tyranid Gargoyles and similar flying creatures are Jump Infantry. Can Terradons really keep pace with Jetbikes and their Turboboosters?


Lord Mazdamundi's entry mentions being able to target multiple enemy units with his spells, but does not give him permission to cast more than one per turn. Also, his Ruination of Cities power mentions "very dangerous terrain", but there are no rules for such a thing.


Tehenhauin's Tide of Serpents does not mention the To-Wound roll for its poisoned attacks.


Tehenhauin on Engine of the Gods's entry also mentions targeting multiple units, but does not allow him to cast multiple powers. Also, the "Burning Alignment" ability is a bit confusing - I had to read it a few times to really understand what was going on. A rewrite of the rule text may be in order.


The Suarus Oldblood (and several other entries) menton a "Glyph Necklace" wargear item, but I could not find rules for this.


Similarly, many entries include a "shield" option, but I could find no mention of what it would do.


Gor-Rok's Shielf of the Aeons mentions that he "counts as being behind a wall for the first round of close combat". The problem here is that there are no rules for being behind a wall. I assume you are trying to reference the rules for "Assaulting Through Cover", but that isn't very clear. Also, you would have to specify whether that would only count when he is charged, or even if he is charging.


I suggest giving the Temple Guard the Retinue special rule, as it would better suit their role as bodyguards and help protect the Mage Priests in close combat as they couldn't be singled out.


How exactly does Chakax's Ultimate Bodyguard rule work? Is he moved after charging and reacting is done, or does he simply have to try and charge an IC or squad leader? How does this interact with the Rank and File rule?

How does his Helm of the Prime Guardian work? Does it only prevent the opposing player from putting down troops that close to him, or does it affect his own deployment decisions as well? It seems like this could be used against the Lizardmen player...

How broad is the effect of the Key to the Eterinity Chamber? Does it affect models in base contact with Chakax? Models directing their attacks against him? Models in contact with his unit or directing their attacks against them? Entire units in contact with his unit? etc...


It seems like there should be some correlation between the number of Salamanders/Razordons and the required number of Skinks in the unit, though that is up to you.


The Jungle Swarm's Tiny rule seems a bit overpowered. Most cover these days is 4+ already, so most of the time if they are in cover they would get 2+. Add on the fact that the "Swarms" rule already inludes the "Stealth" rule as standard, and you could argue that you are giving them a toral of +4 to cover saves (since you don't mention it not stacking), so even 6+ cover would become 2+. I would suggest that the Stealth in the Swarms rule is enough, or perhaps an additional +1 at most.

Also, the unit comp says "3-5 Jungle Swarms" and then you have an option for up to 2 more Jungle Swarms. So can you take up to 7, or just up to 5? Guessing the 5, but it is not clear.


Terradon Riders - again I suggest Jump Infantry rather than Jetbikes.


Engine of the Gods - Same issues as with Tehenauin on the Engine.

[Fear is the mind killer]

Wow. I wasn't expecting an answer this thorough! Okay, there's a lot to go through here, and I've recently been told that my job will end soon, so most of my time is focussed on getting a new job. However, I'm not going to ignore someone who has clearly taken so much time to help out, and I don't want to do thread necromancy by the time I manage to sort myself out, so what I'll do is take your reply in short segments and deal with each one when I manage to grab a short break if that's okay.

Right, before I begin, I think it best to mention that the reason why this took so long to make this codex is because I wanted to make sure that I followed precedent, so I got hold of a copy of codex chaos daemons and warhammer armies daemons and went through all of the profiles and rules and everything that makes each army list to see how the 2 armies translated across the 2 gaming systems. This will explain some of my decisions later on with regards to dealing with some of your later points.

For now let's deal with the following:

>>Rank and File:

To be honest I don't intend to use this rule, but my best mate (and I imagine others too) would want to use it so I threw it in. Personally I was thinking of not using it at all, so would it just be easier to ditch it, or perhaps make it only apply when not in assault?

>>1) What happens to the formation when they launch an assault, or are charged? Following the normal procedure for charging or reacting to a charge would most likely break up the formation. Do they keep the bonuses if they are no longer ranked up but were at the start of the phase?

When a unit uses the rank and file ability its squad coherency is reduced to 0" so all of the squad members must remain in base contact with each other in order to benefit from it. If they are split up from each other during an assault the bonus is lost. They can choose to ignore the normal assault rules that would require them to split up in order to maximise the number of opponents, in which case the opposing player may choose to move his models into base contact with the rank and file unit.

>>2) What exactly are the bonus "additional wounds"? Is it for combat resolution only, or are these actual wounds which must be saved against? If they are actual wounds, is it a per-model thing (i.e. each model attacking gains bonus wounds based on the ranks) or just a basic bonus to the total wounds caused? When are they caused? (At what initiative step?) Are the bonuses based on ranks existing at the start of the combat, at the initiative step they occur, or at combat resolution?

Combat resolution only, based on the ranks remaining at the end of the assault phase.

>>3) How exactly do "attacks to the side" and "attacks to the rear" affect this bonus? This obviously depends greatly on the answers to question 2. Is it enough that models be in base contact to the side or rear of the formation, or do they actually have to attack first to remove the bonus? (And so is the bonus still in effect if it occurs before enemy models with lower I).

If the enemy assaults and the majority of the unit is to the side or rear, (determining this in the same way as you would determine which side of a tank you were facing), then that is when they are treated as assaulting in this way.

>>In regards to "Channelling" - What happens if the model being channelled to is in range of something like a Psychic Hood, but not the Mage Priest? RAW would say the Psychic Hood is innefective, but I would think RAI would be that it would work. Also, I humbly suggest that a Perils attack should affect the target of the "channelling" instead of or in addition to the Mage Priest.

The model who is channelling is treated as if it were a mage-priest for the purposes of casting a power although the skink priest may not do anything else in that turn while he is temporarily possessed. (i.e. no psychic test is taken and any psychic defenses treat the skink priest as if it were the mage priest).

How about changing the wording to this: "Channelling: If a Slann Mage-Priest is in the army, a model with this rule may be treated as if the Mage-Priest was in its location for determining range, line of sight, overcoming psychic defenses such as the psychic hood etc. If the model uses this ability it may not use any of its psychic powers or ranged attacks. The Mage-Priest can only choose to use this ability with one channelling model per turn, and cannot cast spells from its current location if it is possessing a model with this rule.

[Fear is the mind killer]

>>1) Many powers could do with a clarification on when they are usable. Basically any of the non-shooting effects should tell you when you can use them. For example, when you use Flamewall can have a huge impact on how it plays out. If it is used at the start of the turn, it will affect your own units' movement, shooting and assaults. If used in the Movement Phase it will affect your own units' shooting and assaults. If used during the shooting phase, it will only affect your own units assaults (assuming you use it at the end of the shooting phase). There are many other powers where this is true. (For example - if Feral Rage is cast at the start of the turn, it will work as seemingly intended, but if you can cast it during the Movement phase, you can side-step the Rage issue by casting it after the target unit moves.)

All powers are used in the shooting phase with the following exceptions:

Start of the turn: Feral Rage, Transformation of Kadon, Speed of Light (target cannot move in movement phase), Harmonic Convergence, Steed of Shadows, Aspect of the Dreadknight & Ghostwalk.

Either player's assault phase, before the close combat is fought: Savage Beast, Wyssan's Wildform, Enfeeble & Okkam's Mindrazor.

I'm trying to minimise the non-shooting powers due to the warhammer armies typically needing decent ranged attacks to help them against tanks, as well as to minimise confusion when dealing with an army containing multiple lores.

>>2) Many powers could do with a clarification of how long they last. For example, how long do the effects of Transmutation of Lead, Pha's Protection, Solar Flare or Awakening of the Earth last?

Flamewall, Transmutation of Lead, Pha's Protection, Solar Flare, Awakening of the Earth, Earth Blood, Okkam's Mindrazor, Aspect of the Dreadknight & Soulblight all last for just 1 turn.

>>3) Can Plague of Rust or other "permanent" powers affect a target more than once per game?

Yes, Transformation of Kadon, Plague of Rust & Soulblight are stackable, although the Soulblight power only lasts for 1 turn.

>>4) Can Savage Beast, Wyssan's Wildform or other similar powers affect a unit more than once in the same turn? Can they stack with each other?

No. Only the 3 powers mentioned above are stackable.

>>5) The assault move section of the "Speed of Light" power is a bit vague. What constitutes "the same direction" - i.e. how far off can it be? Also, the unit in question didn't make a "normal move", it made a special move to any point on the table within line of sight. Finally, "within line of sight" of who? The caster? The moving unit? Both?

Fair point. The intention is that the unit is temporarily turned into light and then turned back. How about:

"Speed of Light: 1 friendly unit within 24″ may move in a straight line to any point on the table that is within its line of sight. The unit may not move in the movement phase or run in that turn, although it may assault a unit provided that the assault move is in the same straight line as the normal move, in which case the unit strikes first in the first round of assault."

>>6) What happens to a unit in the path of a piece of terrain moved by Landshift?

It can choose to stay there and be inside the terrain, or it can choose to move out of the way in the same manner as a successful evasion of tank shock. The movement of the terrain is very fast but not dangerous. It is tempting to have the terrain 'tank shock' the opposing units and running them over with a tree but I think that might be going a bit far. Models inside terrain that moves may choose to 'disembark' or to stay inside it as it moves.

>>7) Does Pit of Shades allow any kind of saves? The AP2 would suggest that Invulnerable and/or Cover Saves might be allowed, but the "remove as casualties" part suggests they may not be. Also, what happens to vehicles hit by this power?

No it is one of those removal powers. I put in the AP2 because I didn't want to leave that bit blank on the profile. Vehicles take a dangerous terrain test as it says, with the standard risk of immobilisation but nothing further than that. If it was more damaging than that then it would be like a grenade launcher that shot big vortex grenades.

>>8) Are saves of any kind allowed against wounds caused by Spirit Leech?

Invulnerable saves would only be fair I suppose.

Before I finish with the subject of magical powers, I forgot to include magical defenses in the codex. I'm normally not that forgetful, but recently I've had a house move, a funeral, a new baby on the way, and interviews all at the same time, so I apologise for the number of basic things that I have forgotten. Anyway, with regards to protecting itself against psychic powers, there are 2 options that come to mind;

1. Allow psykers to purchase dispel scrolls (or plaques in this case), which act as psychic hoods.
2. Allow psykers the option of replacing one of their powers with the Dispel power, which acts the same as a psychic hood.

I quite like the 1st option and will probably add this to the list of options for the psychic characters. Does this meet with your approval?

>> How long does the "Stunning" effect from Magical weapons last?

Until the end of the next assault phase.

>> How does the "Tearing" effect work? Are wounds doubled before or after saves are taken?

After, although of course only the invulnerable saves would apply.

>>Terradons counting as Jetbikes just feels wrong. Tyranid Gargoyles and similar flying creatures are Jump Infantry. Can Terradons really keep pace with Jetbikes and their Turboboosters?

In this case I was following precedent as set by the daemons books. The way I saw it is that models that are the size of a man or bigger were jump infantry, whereas those models that were stretched out and flat and were not really much use at walking count as jetbikes, such as with the screamers. The terradons, while big, have that sleek look about them that gives the impression of being capable of great speed, particularly when diving. I understand how this may seem strange, when you imagine the speed that a jetbike could achieve when going flat out or over long distances, but remember that ork helicopters are also in the same category, so there is some flexibility in terms of what counts as a jetbike for movement purposes. However, I don't think that they could turbo boost, so how about they count as eldar jetbikes (allowing them to duck out of sight after making their normal move) but do not have the turbo boost rule? I'm trying to expand the capabilities of warhammer armies in this regard, so that all flyers aren't automatically jump infantry and there are some parts of the army that are still very fast. That and the terradons work much better as hit & run units rather than as jump infantry with poisoned pistol equivalents.

>>Lord Mazdamundi's entry mentions being able to target multiple enemy units with his spells, but does not give him permission to cast more than one per turn. Also, his Ruination of Cities power mentions "very dangerous terrain", but there are no rules for such a thing.

Gah. You're right. Lord Mazdamundi is indeed able to cast up to 5 powers a turn. Very dangerous terrain must have been something I remember from a chapter approved article or a previous edition or something. It means taking a wound on a 1 or 2 rather than just on a 1.

>>Tehenhauin's Tide of Serpents does not mention the To-Wound roll for its poisoned attacks.

4+.

>>Tehenhauin on Engine of the Gods's entry also mentions targeting multiple units, but does not allow him to cast multiple powers. Also, the "Burning Alignment" ability is a bit confusing - I had to read it a few times to really understand what was going on. A rewrite of the rule text may be in order.

Okay so I need to make sure that all of the psykers with more than 2 powers are capable of casting them all in one turn. Does this rewrite explain how it works better?:

"Burning Alignment: The engine of the gods may choose to fire a shooting attack against all enemy units within 12″, inflicting D6 S4 hits that ignore armour saves. Successful invulnerable saves must be re-rolled. If this option is taken the invulnerable save granted to friendly units within 12" is lost until the beginning of the lizardman’s next turn."

>>The Suarus Oldblood (and several other entries) menton a "Glyph Necklace" wargear item, but I could not find rules for this.

It should have been in the wargear section. It confers a 5+ invulnerable save.

>>Similarly, many entries include a "shield" option, but I could find no mention of what it would do.

That's embarassing. I should have remembered to put that in the wargear section. It's a close combat weapon that confers a 6+ save to units that have no armour.

>>Gor-Rok's Shielf of the Aeons mentions that he "counts as being behind a wall for the first round of close combat". The problem here is that there are no rules for being behind a wall. I assume you are trying to reference the rules for "Assaulting Through Cover", but that isn't very clear. Also, you would have to specify whether that would only count when he is charged, or even if he is charging.

That's what I meant yes. Gor-Rok counts as being assaulted through cover but only when he is charged. He has his own personal wall but this is not of much use when he's trying to run into a fight!

>>I suggest giving the Temple Guard the Retinue special rule, as it would better suit their role as bodyguards and help protect the Mage Priests in close combat as they couldn't be singled out.

Yes that's a good idea. I thought that as a bodyguard they automatically counted as a retinue or enabled the independent character to count as a unit upgrade. I think I may be thinking of the rumoured 6th ed rules that were leaked a while ago.

>>How exactly does Chakax's Ultimate Bodyguard rule work? Is he moved after charging and reacting is done, or does he simply have to try and charge an IC or squad leader? How does this interact with the Rank and File rule?

He swaps places with whichever model the IC or squad leader is assaulting. Perhaps it would just be easier to allow him to swap places with any other temple guard when a close combat has started but before the assault starts?

>>How does his Helm of the Prime Guardian work? Does it only prevent the opposing player from putting down troops that close to him, or does it affect his own deployment decisions as well? It seems like this could be used against the Lizardmen player...

An interesting point. I'll clarify it to say something like 'Infiltrators/outflankers may not use their infiltration/outflanking ability to deploy within 18" of Chakax.' I suppose technically Sly Marbo and Lictors etc could still get past him, but they are pretty elite infiltrators.

>>How broad is the effect of the Key to the Eterinity Chamber? Does it affect models in base contact with Chakax? Models directing their attacks against him? Models in contact with his unit or directing their attacks against them? Entire units in contact with his unit? etc...

All enemy models touching his base.

>>It seems like there should be some correlation between the number of Salamanders/Razordons and the required number of Skinks in the unit, though that is up to you.

Well there's some variety for the player on that front. Some players might want fearsome firebreathing lizards on the rampage.

>>The Jungle Swarm's Tiny rule seems a bit overpowered. Most cover these days is 4+ already, so most of the time if they are in cover they would get 2+. Add on the fact that the "Swarms" rule already inludes the "Stealth" rule as standard, and you could argue that you are giving them a toral of +4 to cover saves (since you don't mention it not stacking), so even 6+ cover would become 2+. I would suggest that the Stealth in the Swarms rule is enough, or perhaps an additional +1 at most.

Well the trouble is that the jungle swarms are rubbish. They've got slow poisoned weapons yes, but they're T 1 and have no armour. The one use for them that I could think of is that they are only 1" tall in real life, so they could be a nuisance unit to draw enemy units towards them so that they don't just slither out at the last minute to contest an objective. To be honest I'm thinking of removing them entirely, and I'll have them as a wargear option instead for ICs.

I'll update the dex with all of these changes once the changes have been finalised.

[Ambience 327]

Glad I could help you get your ducks in a row - as it seems you are doing with the comments and proposed changes you have made above. One of the most difficult things to do when looking over your own work is catching those little areas where you know exactly what you meant, but other people are confused or it just isn't clear (or even there, like the shield and glyph necklace). It always helps to have an extra set of eyes, and an extra take on how things are working out.

I like the proposed change for Chanelling a lot. It really helps clear things up and I think it would work a lot better that way.

Same goes for the "Speed of Light" bit - your re-write makes the intention a lot clearer.

The re-write for the Engine of the gods is similarly well done.

I think the minor change to the Helm of the Prime Guardian sounds about right.

[Fear is the mind killer]

Okay. The codex has been updated. I decided against including swarms as an upgrade in the end as I didn't want to make Tehenhauin less special. The retinue rule is built in to all bodyguard units so I didn't add them as a special rule. Do the points costs look reasonable?