The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[Sexiest_hero]

Good job although I disagree with a few bits.

[Askari]

Good job although I disagree with a few bits.

Well I don't claim to be the authority on Vampire Counts, they are my opinion and I encourage disagreements Anything in particular you'd like to discuss?

And a Hellsteed is indeed normal Cavalry, so works very well in cav lists or any list that uses Black Knights. As to flying horror, it's not the worst power ever no, but there's other powers I think that, optimally, are far superior for the cost - especially when an approximation of the same effect can be done without using up Vampiric Power limits.

[Symrivven]

Like I said before great writeup Askair, its good to have a central easy to find place for the Vampire Counts basics.

Sexiest_hero:
Feel free to share your insights, it is a discussion forum for a reason.

That being said here are my two cents, I agree with most of what Askari has written so I just focus on the differences/additions.

Vampire Hero:
I don’t see this one working on foot. For casting on foot you get the same efficiency with a necromancer (unless you want one of the restricted lore’s). And for fighting on foot, its a lot of points on 2 t4 wounds, to survive you have to spend a lot of points on magic items. So many that there is few over for combat thus your generally better off buying something else instead. Thus indeed try your luck on a steed.

Dire wolves:
Maybe worth mentioning the direwolf trick for new players. You can guarantee a unit of 6 + a doomwolf holds up a single (mounted) character for at least one turn by challenging with a doomwolf. Assuming you charge you loose by at most 5 combat ress (1 wound kill + 5 overkill -1 charge ) so 6 wolves + a doomwolf will have one wolf standing after a round of combat, enough to prevent the character from doing something useful in its own turn. Note that for the rare single bsb you need an extra wolf.

Skeletons:
Against soft low armoured targets skeletons can come out ahead through attrition especially with a motd necro close by (from the start of the battle). And they can have a banner which is useful in one mission.

That being said our strength does not lay in our core so indeed keep core to a minimum.

Bat swarms:
For dual charging (which is the only time you try to get these in combat) it can be beneficial to have them fielded 1 wide and 2 deep so the unit that actually has some fighting power gets all their models in combat.

Black knights:
An unupgraded unit makes for a nice little utility unit with great mobility and for its price great durability. Good for threatening warmachines, single characters and other small units.

Coven throne:
Scrying pool can be used to get reroll to hit on spells cast, this might catch an opponent of guard.

Cove throne hero setups:
Powers:Aura of dark majesty works great with battle of wills. Dreadknight because you get challenged anyway, beguile its great in a challenge and synergies with the aura.
Items: nightshroud, because it affects a lot of models and in combination with battle of wills makes the chariot very survivable. Top up with a dragonbane gem for flaming artillery.
Or obsidian amulet for 2++ versus magic, tricksters shards works on a lot of attacks, and one of the 5 point shields depending on your preference.

I’m still not a fan of the whole fear combo, there are simply to many units that ignore fear one way or another and the units that are eligible for it still have a reasonable chance to succeed on the fear test.

[Frankly]

As to flying horror, it's not the worst power ever no, but there's other powers I think that, optimally, are far superior for the cost - especially when an approximation of the same effect can be done without using up Vampiric Power limits.

Optimal? Yeah I guess if your being general. But once you start really thinking outside of the Box and 'Optimal choices' start to lose its meaning, because you should start choosing the choices that a suited more for your armylist type or overall list stratagy instead a generalizations. The V.C. armybook has a huge scope to create alot of different viable lists. Whats 'optimal' to the different list types then changes.


Its pretty clear cut that mobile combat characters choosing their own combats is a pretty solid set up, especially in lists that are highly mobile. Which V.C. strangely enough(given their marching rules) are very good at doing with units like VGs, TGs, wolves, fell bats etc, etc. A character with flying horror seems to be a pretty solid list choice, or its one to look at in detail.

Exactly, I think its a great thing for choppy foot lords who your opponents might try to avoid, if running a foot list I think a flying horror vamp is something to consider simply so you can support the combat you need to.

On a second note as the hellsteed is not monstrous am I correct in thinking he'll still get a look out sir roll in/near a unit of cav?

I have my Lord sitting in a Ghoul unit ready to support my other flyers going into combats. And 2 hero vampires on Hellsteads in a black knight unit, ones a BSB, both are there also to support in combats. That BsB is so handy.

So I use:

Flying lord

2 x flying heros

3 x 8 VGs

2 x TGs

Which gives me great mobility and charge range to setup targets.


I picked up a nice trick at a tournament two week ago. A player was using a pretty strong set up:

GG horde + blender lord.

2 necros + BSB thrall with summon creatures of the night. + Mortis engine.

The main things was his Lord unit having a pretty consistant magic phase meant that the unit was one of the hardest to stop in the tournament.

The other cool thing was S.c.o.t.h.Night stopped him bleeding VPs from his dire wolves that would usually die from support fire and the like.

I replaced a necro with the same thrall set up in my M.Nerco list and played 3 games over with it this weekend, it was pretty awesome tbh. The blood power combos well with a consistant magic phase and mortis engines.

[anthioram]

As others have said, you've done a great job. I don't agree with everything but it is a good piece of work non the less.

What i don't undestand is your opinion on fell bats. I find them incredibly useful, they are a cheap drop, and a flying speed bump.

Spirit hosts are quite slower and sometimes they just can't be where you need them. Maybe it's too far away, or maybe they are blocked. I always use 2 units of fell bats, keeping them behind my general's unit, and when the moment comes, fly them to redirect some threat.

[Askari]

As others have said, you've done a great job. I don't agree with everything but it is a good piece of work non the less.

What i don't undestand is your opinion on fell bats. I find them incredibly useful, they are a cheap drop, and a flying speed bump.

I don't know why i despide them so much, perhaps because my Spirit Hosts have performed so well while Fell Bats have bounced off Dwarf warmachine crews. They also need to be near the General to fly, and unlike the Terrorgheist don't have a shooting attack or like Bat Swarms some other utility. So basically, I find they're not super cheap drops (8pts less than Dire Wolves IIRC, but Dire Wolves fill up that irritating Core), they can't reliablt hunt warmachines or single models (unlike Spirit Hosts, who are immune to such trifling issues as "weapons", and also aren't much more expensive), and don't even speed bump for long compared to aforementiond Hosts. I just don't see their purpose...

Symrivven: Excellent point on the Bat Swarms, they should indeed be 1 wide x 2 deep if dual-charging the front with another unit, doesn't matter as much if you're flanking of course. Also, for the "Direwolf trick" if you really need to, you can resurrect the Doom Wolf champion to hold off for even longer.

Optimal? Yeah I guess if your being general. But once you start really thinking outside of the Box and 'Optimal choices' start to lose its meaning, because you should start choosing the choices that a suited more for your armylist type or overall list stratagy instead a generalizations. The V.C. armybook has a huge scope to create alot of different viable lists. Whats 'optimal' to the different list types then changes.

Of course, in a flying-based list Flying Horror will make more sense, I just feel that, on the Lord, you're losing out on the devastating Quickblood + Red Fury combo which just cripples enemies like no tomorrow, especially since you could take a Hellsteed to let him fly. Certainly not so on Heroes, who are missing out on that combo anyway, so go ahead. If it were 5 points cheaper, I could certainly find use for a flying, Forbidden Lore Beasts hero Vampire.

[SteelTitan]

I don't know why i despide them so much, perhaps because my Spirit Hosts have performed so well while Fell Bats have bounced off Dwarf warmachine crews. They also need to be near the General to fly, and unlike the Terrorgheist don't have a shooting attack or like Bat Swarms some other utility. So basically, I find they're not super cheap drops (8pts less than Dire Wolves IIRC, but Dire Wolves fill up that irritating Core), they can't reliablt hunt warmachines or single models (unlike Spirit Hosts, who are immune to such trifling issues as "weapons", and also aren't much more expensive), and don't even speed bump for long compared to aforementiond Hosts. I just don't see their purpose...

I really came to like Fell Bats.

I've had very mediocre experiences with dire wolves, spirit hosts or fell bats in a warmachine hunting role so I don't use that as one of the main criteria to judge Fell Bats. However, I prefer wolves for this role as they can make it into combat in turn 1 (12" vanguard + 18" charge) so even when they don't kill the crew they at least prevent it from shooting for one or more turns. However, a single unit of 5 wolves is easily dealt with so putting down 2x5 opposite to one warmachine is usually a good choice.

Actually, I need the spirit hosts near my main line for tarpiting and redirecting too much to send them off to warmachines. I won't disagree that they are better at this than Fell Bats but the fact that Fell Bats are both cheaper and faster gives Fell Bats a definite role in my army.

Before there were people claiming that a cav bus didn't make that much of a difference speedwise to warrant its use over Grave Guard. I've experienced otherwise. The same goes for Fell Bats. The additional 4"/8" move can quite easily make the difference between diverting that enemy's charge that will cost you the game or falling short by a couple of inches.

[Askari]

Before there were people claiming that a cav bus didn't make that much of a difference speedwise to warrant its use over Grave Guard. I've experienced otherwise. The same goes for Fell Bats. The additional 4"/8" move can quite easily make the difference between diverting that enemy's charge that will cost you the game or falling short by a couple of inches.

Yeah that was me, but the premise I was arguing against was that a cavalry bus gets you into combat quicker - which I disagreed with due to random charge distances and it still being minimum turn 2 to engage. What I did agree with is that the extra movement is useful for picking your fights and possibly flanking/breaking through the line.

Oh, and I've edited some of that monstrosity up there to take into account valid points (even if I still seem to deride anything that flies and isn't a monster )

[BigbyWolf]

Am yet to have a game with the new book yet, but am I right in thinking that the "Vampire" rule no longer helps nearby troops move- I.E. A unit of Black Knights led by a Vampire (who isn't the general) can't march unless the general is near?

Given the lack of the Banner of Hellish Vigour this is a little disappointing as it means using them for flanking is dependent on magic.

[SteelTitan]

Only units within 12" of the general can march. Units that are themselves 'Vampiric' can march when outside this general's range however (Varghulf, Blood Knights, etc.) but cannot make non-vampiric units march (like before).

[Freeman]

Despite I haven’t had a lot of practical experience with the new VC army; I find that my main problems are location and mobility.

The black knights, hexwraiths and direwolves are kinda slow if they can’t march. The same happens to the infantry. Also, you have to place the spell bubble in the right place to affect the most units with it. All that means that you have to move your general very carefully. And when you try to pack that along with spellcasting and combat prowess in a single blender/wizard lord you have a tough time deciding where your general should be.

I still have to try an all-vampire flank (Varghulf, Vargheists and Blood Knights) and keep my lord in the center. Also I’m tooling with the idea of a “necromancer coven”, that is, multiple hero necros with arcane items and balefire+blasphemous tome to mitigate the lack of wizard levels and spam spells with a single dice.

Anyway… how do you deal with the general lack of speed of the army and the positioning of your general?

[Symrivven]

I don't really feel a lack of speed, we actually have a lot of high speed models. I play with a heavy fast flank with my blender on it, some wolves, vargheists/vargulf, bloodknights/terrorgheist. This way all these units can move rather fast. Keep in mind that the 12" bubble is considerably larger if you move your lord right, two examples:

Turn 0 make a vanguard move with our wolves. Turn 1 move your lord forwards bringing it in range of the wolves (in case they weren't) then march the wolves.

Same with terrorgheist. Turn one move it 20" and then move your general. Turn 2 If your general is mounted it should still be in range of the gheist if not or on foot move the general first (8"first turn+ 8"second +12" bubble = 28") this gives enough leeway inches for not having the terrorgeist directly in front of the uni, then march the terrorgheist.

In the terrorgheist example you can even march a foot unit turn 2 if you move it before the general moves closer to the terrorgeist. Turn two movement might look like: move infantry unit (which will be on the border of the generals march bubble closest to your table side) then move the general, this will bring the bubble in rage of the terrorgheist, then move the terrorgheist.

Using this method you should be able to march a lot of your army (not all) the first 2 to 3 turns even units with considerably higher or lower movement than your lord should be able to keep up this way. After that many units should be in a position to charge.

Furthermore having a strong flank can mean that it isn't that bad if you slower elements arrive later. For example by the time your flanking forces have dealt with your enemies flank and are read to push for the centre your centre is getting in a position where it can threaten the enemies centre. which means you can probably get one of the two in the flank of the enemy.

Finally you can put a (book of arkhan) necro in your centre (or flank depending on the position of your lord) to move those units a bit faster.

Edit: Come to think of it I have the feeling from most of my battles that Vampires dominate the movement phase. We have some of the best redirectors and speed bumps in the game. Our lore ads a movement spell and has a summon to create redirectors/speedbumps on the fly, and many of our units are rather fast. (This will of course be less if you play a shambling horde necro spam list)

[SteelTitan]

Isn't the rule that the general has to be in range of "want-to-march units" at the beginning of the turn rather than during the turn? That's how I've played it anyway Since like...ever...

[Kayosiv]

There is no such restriction in the new book. 12" or less form general at the time of them moving is all that matters.

[Symrivven]

The previous armybook indeed had that specification, but they dropped it in the current book.

edit: ninja'd

[warplock]

Which is great, but extremely nonsensical

[Frankly]

Fell Bats have bounced off Dwarf warmachine crews.

Actually Dwarf artillery and Iron cannons are a real trouble to close down early on. I just hope my bats or wolves don't crumble before his combat phase. I'm still looking for a relaible support unit to get to and hold up the dwarf guns.

I just feel that, on the Lord, you're losing out on the devastating Quickblood + Red Fury combo which just cripples enemies like no tomorrow ...

Good point. I run a ghoul king to get hatred and take Red fury, it works out about the same.

I think its very viable to go the hellsteed route. Its not something I've actually looked into to much with a lord.

On the table top I do like the very small foot print of the ghoul king. Its in a themed ghoulish army as well.

I don't really feel a lack of speed, we actually have a lot of high speed models.

Yeah I fully agree, I've been trying to pull together a blitzing list that can redeploy on turn one and blitz one flank, while the opponent's other flank is tired down by vanguarding wolves followed by spirit hosts.

All the tools are there, I'm just having trouble getting it to run consistantly against opponents that know what it can do.

With wolves in our core, flying hammer units in both our character slots and specials and flying suppport in our Rare slots, I reckon theres very few armybooks that are actually as quick as the VC armybook can be.

[Askari]

Good point. I run a ghoul king to get hatred and take Red fury, it works out about the same.

Aha, didn't think of the Ghoul King, I'll use that as a point towards it up above.

[SteelTitan]

Good point. I run a ghoul king to get hatred and take Red fury, it works out about the same.

Not being able to reroll hits in consecutive rounds of combat (hatred) and practically always rerolling hits (quickblood) really adds up. With units being steadfast all over the place (or entire battle lines being stubborn...new empire *sigh*), you tend to be stuck in combat for multiple rounds (a bit less with my cav-bus setup bc i picked my fights well). In my games it hasn't been uncommon for my Lord+Unit to be stuck in a combat for 2 to 3 turns. Those rerolls mattered both with CR but also if you come up against a particularly tough character in a challenge or when you just have to be sure you kill that character when directing your attacks against him.

It's a safety net, it might not make a difference in some games I admit, but personally I don't want to take any chances with a 500 point character and/or my anchor unit. In summary, I wouldn't dismiss the superiority of quickblood that easily.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Not being able to reroll hits in consecutive rounds of combat (hatred) and practically always rerolling hits (quickblood) really adds up. With units being steadfast all over the place (or entire battle lines being stubborn...new empire *sigh*), you tend to be stuck in combat for multiple rounds (a bit less with my cav-bus setup bc i picked my fights well). In my games it hasn't been uncommon for my Lord+Unit to be stuck in a combat for 2 to 3 turns. Those rerolls mattered both with CR but also if you come up against a particularly tough character in a challenge or when you just have to be sure you kill that character when directing your attacks against him.

It's a safety net, it might not make a difference in some games I admit, but personally I don't want to take any chances with a 500 point character and/or my anchor unit. In summary, I wouldn't dismiss the superiority of quickblood that easily.

Ghoul Kings have Infinite Hatred - meaning they have the effect of hatred all the time. The advantage here is if you're fighting something with I 8 or higher you still get a re-roll. The downside is you don't strike simultaneously with other things that have ASF. Otherwise, there isn't any difference between the two.