The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[Nocculum]

How do people find non-vampire lists?

I'm working on a barrows list, sans Khemler or Krell (too expensive!) and up to 1,000 points, I'm using a necromancer, a cairn wraith, a banshee, and a second necromancer depending - then it's zombies, ghouls, mortiss engine, and crypt horrors and the like.

With the Mortiss offering +2 to cast for the necromancers, I'm not really missing the vampires.

[the_picto]

I did quite well yesterday with a cheapish ghoul king (red fury, dragon bane gem, fencers blades) and a master necro (lvl 4 and the cursed book). The ghoul king did feel a bit fragile, but was still managing to kill about 6-8 models a turn. The fencers blades are nice as they give you the extra attack and push most basic troops up to 5+ to hit him.

Graveguard with hand weapon and shield are nice. Frenzied horde of corsairs with extra hand weapon and +1 attack from the cauldron (60 attacks) bounce off them. Banner of the barrows and rerolls from vanhels helped. A unit doesn't have to be in combat when vanhels is cast to get the rerolls right, just has to make it into combat before the casters next magic phase?

What do people think of flying vargheist backwards? Seems a bit unsporting, but limits the downside of frenzy until they are in a better position.

[Askari]

Neither of those things are true. Wight kings with a great weapon are stronger than wraiths and unless you have 3+ wraiths in a unit (or I guess if you're fighting a wider unit than yours and the wraith is on the end) he will not reduce the amount of damage a unit can take because the enemy can just target models adjacent to him. The only things wraiths do that is useful in units is cause terror.

Wight kings are nice because they have killing blow, making characters afraid to challenge them, and because they have good leadership, which DOES matter. I haven't played two games in a row with vampire counts where I haven't had to take some sort of leadership test.

Wraiths are Ethereal, that has huge implications when you can also hide in weak units, which as you say can save you from corner attacks, in a horde this could save you from 4/5 attacks. Doesn't sound like a lot but definitely puts a dent in offensive output. Although Wight Kings have Killing Blow, so do Grave Guard and Black Knights, which are cheaper and generally more useful. The Leadership is of minor issue as you can be in range of a General, and really don't take nearly as many tests as other armies. I certainly don't see Wight Kings providing their points cost of use to a unit.

Graveguard with hand weapon and shield are nice. Frenzied horde of corsairs with extra hand weapon and +1 attack from the cauldron (60 attacks) bounce off them. Banner of the barrows and rerolls from vanhels helped. A unit doesn't have to be in combat when vanhels is cast to get the rerolls right, just has to make it into combat before the casters next magic phase?

How will you get into combat, and have a round of combat, between Vanhel's being cast and the caster's next magic phase?

[Ville]

How do people find non-vampire lists?

I'm working on a barrows list, sans Khemler or Krell (too expensive!) and up to 1,000 points, I'm using a necromancer, a cairn wraith, a banshee, and a second necromancer depending - then it's zombies, ghouls, mortiss engine, and crypt horrors and the like.

With the Mortiss offering +2 to cast for the necromancers, I'm not really missing the vampires.

In my experience, non-vampire lists can do just as well. You lose the destructive ability of a fully kitted Vamp Lord, but also save a lot of points that can make the rest of your army stronger. Just remember to bring a bunker to hide your casters in, play the magic phase smart and you'll be golden.

[Stonewyrm]

How will you get into combat, and have a round of combat, between Vanhel's being cast and the caster's next magic phase?

If your opponent charges the unit with Vanhel's

If your opponent has set up a charge and you can't get out of it or if you simply know you are going to get charged then you can cast Vanhel's on the unit to either:
1) Prevent the unit getting charged because it is now not worth it or
2) If they do charge make them pay

It also makes the movement twice as dangerous. Not only do I move 8" forwards but I have more options as to how aggresive I place them. The re-rolls will make a lot of opponents think twice about charging.

[Askari]

Ah, yeah, for some reason " just has to make it into combat " put me off the opponent's movement possibility.

[Ville]

I do love my good old Van Halen's. So many different uses!

[Jagosaja]

Nice summary!

I've had success with my blender Strigoi (Red Fury, Dreadknight, Sword of Bloodshed, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Strength). In fact, having Dreadknight on him makes him more survivable as he crushed everything in front of him before they got to strike back (except indestructible Dwarf Lord, he took away only one wound). Keep a Wight King with Nightshroud next to him and see if he ever gets hurt.

I've also found Fell Bats very useful, 32 points is good enough even just for deployment, let alone redirecting and harassment. Maybe they cannot take out dwarven artillery, but they surely will keep every other war machine occupied for a while. And they are very mobile even if they can't march (which they usually do, start close to general turn 1, position themselves for charge in turn 2).

Supernatural Terror can also be a very good part of a Fear Bomb combo.

Hellish Vigour I usually find more useful than Vanhel's. It drastically increases chances of our core units actually doing some damage. Absolutely unbelievable on Zombies. It has great tactical value IMO since most of the opponents will start fearing our core units.

[Ville]

Hellish Vigour I usually find more useful than Vanhel's. It drastically increases chances of our core units actually doing some damage. Absolutely unbelievable on Zombies. It has great tactical value IMO since most of the opponents will start fearing our core units.

I don't see how Hellish Vigour could beat Vanhels on our core troops. With their low WS, aren't they having more trouble hitting enemy units than wounding them? After all, our core has S3, which is average. I can see Hellish Vigour serving better with Grave Guard and Black Knights, for example, who will increase their chances for Killing Blow.

[Darnok]

A little question: do wings make any sort of sense on a Ghoulking? I'll get the model sooner or later, and I have the small wings from the Vargheists left over - and that conversion should look really nice. But is it "worth it" at all?

[Askari]

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, wings aren't as bad a choice on a Ghoul King due to the fact they already have Infinite Hatred - which means they don't need Quickblood - which means there's points leftover for wings and Red Fury.

[Vaiuri]

If a model has wings (either through the VPower or Hellsteed), are they allowed to join units? I thought flyers couldn't do that (though I am happy to be corrected!)?

[Askari]

Wrong way around, nothing is allowed to join Flying units. A flying character may join a non-flying unit however.

[Symrivven]

In addition to having the points over for fly ghoul kings have no other cheap alternative to gain fly, or better mobility. So yes It could be worth it. However I think only in large battles where an other character is the general will it be worthwhile. Ghoul kings aren't the most survivable of lords and without a unit they become very fragile.

[meowser]

I run a fairy barebones SGK (Red Fury, Sword of Bloodshed, Dragonbane Gem, Cursed Book), and end up charging him out of his Ghoul unit to support other units [Fearbomb skels with hero vamp; Crypt Horrors] much more often than not. Taking wings on him would be extra awesome for that, not to mention the mad fluff points you'll get for using it. The plastic model from TG would look amazing with wings as well, to boot.

[madival]

So after two games versus teclis and a book of hoeth arch mage, I have come to the conclusion that hex wraiths don't work in groups of five. They work well. Units like sword masters hit us to hard to fast for my 30 man grave guard to be effective at striking back. Hex wraiths are an amazing unit at dealing with these guys. 10 s5 power weapons with horses makes this unit a beast versus units that we have problems with. Much more effective then black knights.

[Askari]

So after two games versus teclis and a book of hoeth arch mage, I have come to the conclusion that hex wraiths don't work in groups of five. They work well. Units like sword masters hit us to hard to fast for my 30 man grave guard to be effective at striking back. Hex wraiths are an amazing unit at dealing with these guys. 10 s5 power weapons with horses makes this unit a beast versus units that we have problems with. Much more effective then black knights.

A unit of expensive Ethereal creatures against Teclis/Book of Hoeth mage? Why didn't he just obliterate the unit with.. well... any spell? I'd of thought they'd be target number one. Of course, you are right, if they get into the right combat they can smash face, but even reasonably durable units with ranks can stop them in their tracks and just crumble them to death with CR, Swordmasters, in the small numbers you encounter, are ideal targets I agree.

[madival]

You simply provide other targets and keep them los As long as possible . Also pray for small magic Phases. I am just saying that against people who cant hurt them, hex wraiths are the answer to hammers that would beat our GG into the ground. I know because along with the book if hoeth and teclis, I fought horde phoenix guard and sword masters. The sword masters would have munched almost all my GG in one round of combat. 10 hex wraiths would take that unit all day long, killing 4-5 with scythes and 2-3 with horses. They are also quick enough to flank and maybe break people and roll a flank. Anyone with magical attacks simply gets run through to the next viable target.

[Symrivven]

You simply provide other targets and keep them los As long as possible . Also pray for small magic Phases. I am just saying that against people who cant hurt them, hex wraiths are the answer to hammers that would beat our GG into the ground. I know because along with the book if hoeth and teclis, I fought horde phoenix guard and sword masters. The sword masters would have munched almost all my GG in one round of combat. 10 hex wraiths would take that unit all day long, killing 4-5 with scythes and 2-3 with horses. They are also quick enough to flank and maybe break people and roll a flank. Anyone with magical attacks simply gets run through to the next viable target.

How you conclude that hexwraiths are the answer to Teclis is beyond me. Looking at the rules forum it becomes clear you didn't yet play test this idea of using bigger units of hexwraiths against him.
You are correct that against people who can't hurt them hexwriath are great, so that's why I'm so surprised you want to field them in large units versus Teclis.
Teclis has an above average chance of getting some nasty spell of against them and one does not simply provide other targets. Can you think of anything that is a more juice target for someone as Teclis than 10 hexwraiths?
Even without Teclis hexwraiths are suboptimal versus high elves. The hexwraiths no armour saves allowed attacks aren't that useful because high elves hardly have any saves to begin with. It could be useful versus dragon princes but they have a 2++ versus fire so it isn't working there. Neither will it help you versus their phoenix guard who have a 4++. On top of that High elves have two ways to give their units magical attacks trough an enchanted item and a talisman, both cheap enough to give to some of their champions.

Finally, prayer being the most useless practice ever, it has no place in the tactics forum.

How do you see hexwraiths succeed against High elves in light of such opposition?

[Askari]

Hmm, I find it difficult to get Hexwraiths to run through much of anything actually. 10-strong makes them quite deep, and you have to start and finish 1" away from any enemies, which cancels out another 2" of movement. Not saying it can't be done, but it's rather unreliable, and if the opponent moves cleverly, you won't be doing that anytime soon.

Not criticising at all, just wondering if you have any advice on how to utilise them in such a way that makes them superior to Black or Blood Knights.