The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[Wesser]

Hexwraiths are far too vulnerable for me. 5 on a flank to counter Chaos Knights is fine, 10 is a rather large investment that can easily go poof! to a single Fireball or Lore of Light spell.

Grave Guard should have Great Weapons. There isn't much high strength attacks around, and you need a unit that can open up Chaos Warriors, Empire Knights and Saurus. The extra killing power almost always offsets the extra damage you take (exceptions being fighting Skinks, Ethereals, and Sphinxes. Probably one or two more)

No high STR attacks? Blood Knights, characters, vargheists, Varghulfs, Black Knights and for that matter Terrorgheist/Banshee screams wants a word.....

My usual problem is that I'm fighting elves a lot. Witch Elves, Corsairs, Phoenix Guards and to a lesser extent spearmen is not guys you wanna have a go at your core. Against these foes the greatweapon rly isnt necessary, and well.... Grave Guards with shields is perhaps the only unit I can see standing a chance againts the loathed high elf elites

[Askari]

I didn't say "no" I said "isn't much".

Varghulfs are single models, and both Knights need the charge. Even then they are few in number. S5 isn't "high strength", it's adequate, and when your Core options are so utterly poor at killing things (yes, even Ghouls are at best, decent), you need units that can kill, a lot. The best thing we have to deal with High Elf elites are those Crypt Horrors you don't want to use. I fail to see how an extra pip of armour and parry help against White Lions. Sure, the parry saves 1/6th of the wounds you take, but S6 wounds easier and negates their armour completely. Though to be honest, both are still butchered horribly by White Lions anyway.

[Wesser]

I didn't say "no" I said "isn't much".

Varghulfs are single models, and both Knights need the charge. Even then they are few in number. S5 isn't "high strength", it's adequate, and when your Core options are so utterly poor at killing things (yes, even Ghouls are at best, decent), you need units that can kill, a lot. The best thing we have to deal with High Elf elites are those Crypt Horrors you don't want to use. I fail to see how an extra pip of armour and parry help against White Lions. Sure, the parry saves 1/6th of the wounds you take, but S6 wounds easier and negates their armour completely. Though to be honest, both are still butchered horribly by White Lions anyway.

Well like I said I feel that the extra STR is overkill in 9/10 situations on a unit with KB. The most awesome thing about GG is that they are ressurected like skeletons though. They just work better for me as a durable unit as their offensive potential when deployed with horde and the banner is more than enough. This also mean they usually dont leave the field either. In my gaming environment it is very rare indeed that greatweapon troops isnt eventually destroyed...and itsa lot of points to assume youll lose from the start

[Noblesse oblige]

I agree the crypt horrors are fantastic. I had a game in which they killed 27 white lions, and lions were standing behind the obstacle. But to be trully the horrors had ASF because of corps cart
But it didn't change much - the lions scored 25 hits (without rerolls). But I also rolled good on regeneration and won.
And that's not the only game in which horrors were doing wonders.
About the grave guards, I think many players tired of playing grave guards, the new book gives so many variants and opportunities, that I think that grave guards should rest for some time. IMHO of course.

[madival]

About the grave guards, I think many players tired of playing grave guards, the new book gives so many variants and opportunities, that I think that grave guards should rest for some time. IMHO of course.

I don't think this is the case. At 2000 points, I am fielding every model I have almost with this new book. my grave guard have seen more action then they ever have before. They are our solid fighters and that's a horde formation that we almost always need

[Askari]

Well like I said I feel that the extra STR is overkill in 9/10 situations on a unit with KB.

9/10? I think it's far, far less than that. How do HW&S Grave Guard deal with Chaos Warriors, Ogre Ironguts, Mournfang Cavalry, Empire Knights, Saurus, Steam Tanks, Demigryphs, Necropolis Knights, Chariots of any kind... I could go on here... extra STR is never overkill, and with the rubbish initiative values, ASL isn't that big a deal. If you're catering to your metagame, fine, but make it clear that's what you're doing because in a general scenario, Great Weapon armed Grave Guard are far superior and more versatile.

[Noblesse oblige]

The point is, that graves in previous army book had helm of commandment and regen banner, and with that they were very powerful, but now it's gone, and I think they're too fragile now. But even with that there no reason not to play them. To become not so fragile they need corps carts and baffs from vampire lore, or even help of combat vampires.

[Wesser]

9/10? I think it's far, far less than that. How do HW&S Grave Guard deal with Chaos Warriors, Ogre Ironguts, Mournfang Cavalry, Empire Knights, Saurus, Steam Tanks, Demigryphs, Necropolis Knights, Chariots of any kind... I could go on here... extra STR is never overkill, and with the rubbish initiative values, ASL isn't that big a deal. If you're catering to your metagame, fine, but make it clear that's what you're doing because in a general scenario, Great Weapon armed Grave Guard are far superior and more versatile.

Tunnel-vision I salute thee...

I've found Blood Knights, vargheists and terrorgheists work better against most of those units, but thats my build.

As for Grave Guards...if HW&S helps making sure they're alive at the end of the game, then thats 500 points the enemy dont get.

It's fine if you have different experiences Askari, but with the GW Grave Guard tends to be dead at turn 6..the HW&S guys have an exponentially big chance of still standing there

[Frankly]

Grave Guard; are they only worth taking with GW or is the HW/Shield a viable option?

this ...

Grave Guard should have Great Weapons. There isn't much high strength attacks around ....

I think getting a horde of str6 attacks deals with alot of problems in general play, espeically large targets and heavy armoured targets. Its an amazingly imposing target for your opponents to deal with, because GW GG units are going to punish most everything they touch.

I tried HW and shield a number of times, really trying to get the most out of staff of damnation and ASF from C.Cart, but I found str6 generally a better option for me.

Hi all!

Had anybody tried the coven throne or strigoi ghoul king?

I play with a Ghoul King(Queen) in a flying circus list. He's amazing at getting around the board and supporting in combined charges with vaghiests and TGs.

I love her, at the moment she's the funnest units I'm playing at the moment.

[Noblesse oblige]

Frankly
Please can you write the items/vamp powers that you buy for your queen?
I really like the idea of the ghoul k...I mean queen and want to know the possible variants of her.

[Askari]

It's fine if you have different experiences Askari, but with the GW Grave Guard tends to be dead at turn 6..the HW&S guys have an exponentially big chance of still standing there

Exponentially bigger chance? I think not. Even in the worst-case scenario for GW GG of S5 attacks (negates GW armour, HWS keep one pip + parry) you still suffer less than 50% more casualties. So if you're hit by 10 S5 attacks, you'll lose about 2 extra Grave Guard (4.5 to 6.6). But flip it to offense, and in the worst-case scenario for HW&S (say, Chaos Knights, T4 1+) the GG Guard cause over 4 times as many kills (0.85 to 4.15).

I don't need the extra survivability if the Grave Guard kill everything they encounter. And no matter which way you equip them, Elven elites will still butcher them senseless.

[Mikael.K]

If your opponents wants your GG dead, then they will surely do just that. The thing is, as I see it, is to not make them the most obvious target in your list. If you have, say, a flying strigoi ghoul king, a terrorgheist and a bunch of vargheists coming at you, those GG wont be your first worry. Let´s not look a things in vacuum, when in fact you have other threats aswell.

First time poster here! Yay! Been following this thread closely since it´s birth (the old one aswell). Looking forward to assimilating all that wonderful knowledge you guys have and even share my own thoughts .

Any of you guys playing using any type of comp in your gaming environment?

[madival]

Any of you guys playing using any type of comp in your gaming environment?

What is there to comp ? I am a 40k player for the past couple of years. What do people comp ?

[Skarsnik, the Lord]

What do you think about having lances with your Black Knights? I'm a really big fan of the deadly Vampire Lord on a Nightmare in a unit of 14 Black Knights, but I've started thinking about dropping Black Knights' lances.

The Vampire Lord is the thing and the whole point of the unit, Black Knights are there for protection against shooting, mobility and static combat res. My army list is very strict on points and getting those extra points from lances would be excellent. On the other hand, lances give some nice bonus if the unit gets the charge, and sometimes (mainly against stubborn and steadfast units) those extra kills are more than needed.

What are your opinions? Do you think lances are worth of their points?

Any of you guys playing using any type of comp in your gaming environment?

Here in Finland using ETC-comps is very usual. Almost all competitive tournaments use them, because they're so handy and nicely written.

[Noblesse oblige]

I play ETC restrictions, and they are quite good, they balance armies, but have one bad point. ETC restrictions making players to use only one build (speaking of tournaments, where everybody just want to win), so the variety of armies is getting killed, and I think it's very bad, but nevertheless it's the only comp that most oftenly used, except for "giant fanatic".

[Frankly]

Frankly
Please can you write the items/vamp powers that you buy for your queen?
I really like the idea of the ghoul k...I mean queen and want to know the possible variants of her.

Flying horror, Red fury. Bloodshed + Str potion is what I love to run her with, but in all honsty she need the 4++ ward.

In the context of the armylist; 2 x TG, 2 x 8 Varghiest, 2 x hellstead thralls, lots of wolves, where the primary turn phase is the movement phase shes amazingly fun to play, because she gets in pick her battles alot more than most blender lords.

[Mikael.K]

What is there to comp ? I am a 40k player for the past couple of years. What do people comp ?

There is plenty to comp. Our book is pretty balances, but a lot of other books out there arent. Comp gives the added benefit of more varied builds instead of those cookie-cutter builds we see with certain armies. As been said, the ETC-rules balances things out, but also streamlines the lists we see. For me, comp provides more variation and makes for closer games where the winner is not necessary the one with the strongest AB .

[Balerion]

Exponentially bigger chance? I think not. Even in the worst-case scenario for GW GG of S5 attacks (negates GW armour, HWS keep one pip + parry) you still suffer less than 50% more casualties. So if you're hit by 10 S5 attacks, you'll lose about 2 extra Grave Guard (4.5 to 6.6). But flip it to offense, and in the worst-case scenario for HW&S (say, Chaos Knights, T4 1+) the GG Guard cause over 4 times as many kills (0.85 to 4.15).

I don't need the extra survivability if the Grave Guard kill everything they encounter. And no matter which way you equip them, Elven elites will still butcher them senseless.

There's another knock on his argument that runs along these lines. IIRC, in many elite matchups the GW GG will narrow the gap in an average losing round of combat compared to HW GG. They don't get armour saves and parries against crumbling, so a greater disparity in combat resolution will drain more models from the unit than it would from GW-wielders.

[loveless]

Well, the HWS GG look better than GW GG, IMO, so that's something

I'm just getting back into looking at VC, so bear with me a bit.

Typically, I'd hate only having a 5+ AS on a comparatively expensive infantry unit...but characters can rebuild those ranks easily enough with magic. Is it just a matter of wanting offense vs. defense? What holds things better than HWS Grave Guard (I imagine HWS Skeletons might do decently point-for-point in that situation, but I'm not sure).

I'm of the opinion that you make hammer units more hammery and anvil units more anvilly as opposed to compensating for weaknesses in unit types. If Grave Guard are better at killing (and their rules would indicate that that's what they're there for), then surely giving them GW makes the most sense.

Are Grave Guard even necessary though? You can get punch in Crypt Horrors, Vargheists, and Black Knights (on the charge) - what are the GG offering that they aren't? (other than many 7th edition VC players already having a massive horde of GG from the last book).

[Askari]

You can get punch in Crypt Horrors, Vargheists, and Black Knights (on the charge) - what are the GG offering that they aren't? (other than many 7th edition VC players already having a massive horde of GG from the last book).

Nope, nope and nope.

Sorry, but Crypt Horrors don't have punch, S4 Poison just doesn't cut it against armoured targets. Vargheists are expensive, T4 models that still only manage S5, so aren't as good either, and as you say Black Knights only have it on the charge. Some examples of the sameish points gives you. I'll try and maximise attacks for minimum frontage.

10 Vargheists with Vargoyle (5-wide) - 36 S5 Attacks / 30 T4 no save wounds
12 Crypt Horrors with Haunter (6-wide) - 37 S4 Poison / 36 T5 5+ Regen wounds
15 Black Knights with Lances, Barding, Banner of Barrows (8-wide) - 16 S6 +1 to hit attacks / 15 T4 2+ save wounds
40 Grave Guard with Great Weapons, Banner of Barrows (10-wide horde) - 31 S6 +1 to hit attacks / 40 T4 5+ save wounds

So Grave Guard pack about twice the attacking power of the Black Knights, which they retain from turn to turn, and though the Monstrous Infantry have more slightly more attacks, they are poorer attacks to have, and will lose attacks once they lose 3 wounds, whereas the Grave Guard need to lose 10 before losing a single attack. They are also far tougher than equivalent points in Vargheists, and similarly tough as the Black Knights. Although admittedly don't come close to the resilience of the Crypt Horrors, but that's the whole point of that trade-off, offence vs. defence. The Guard also benefit more from Invocation of Nehek than all the others, and due to causing more casualties, will generall suffer less from crumbling also as Balerion reminded me.