The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[loveless]

Well, there it is, then! That's just the sort of breakdown I wanted to see - thanks, Askari!

[Jagosaja]

Not quite true since you haven't taken into account that they will strike last compared to the other mentioned units. Against common infantry with I3, Vargheists will strike first and therefore will not receive back nearly as much damage as Grave Guard with Great Weapons will, while Black Knights will strike at the same time. Grave Guard first have to soak up the damage to deal a lot of damage. This is not to say the aren't effective, they very much are, but they have a downside for great weapons. 10 Vargheists with Varghoyle will deal massive damage against most opponents before they strike back.

And, by the way, you have not taken into account attacks from mounts and stomps. I believe some S5 stomps may also cause damage.

[Mikael.K]

Still, I dont belive its just that easy. A black knight bus, for instance, is faster and can get into combat with opponents of your choosing. Sure, so can the GG, but 40 of them are a lot more clumsy in terms of manouverability. Then again, this is where vanhels come in I guess :P.

I´ll give my GG a break and try crypt horrors with engine along with a BK fear bomb bus with blender lord. Am I spreading my strengths too thin? Some would argue that the terrorgheist would be more optimal as support for the bus. Also that those crypt horrors could be traded for vargheists. Still, I belive those horrors have their merits, holding the line with a horde of ghouls so the BK´s can deliver their deadly payload .

[NitrosOkay]

Grave Guard with great weapons offer consistent, large numbers of strength 6 attacks. You really can't get that anywhere else in the book.

Also they're great with corpse cart ASF and bat swarms giving ASL. Against that only high elves are still going to hit you first.

[Jagosaja]

They do offer that, but in large numbers, 40+. And that is huge points sink, I know 'cause I use them.

And about corpse cart and bat swarms, that is far too many things to happen at the same time, so I personally wouldn't count on that. It does look tempting, but opponents will see that coming.

[Askari]

Not quite true since you haven't taken into account that they will strike last compared to the other mentioned units.

Still, I dont belive its just that easy. A black knight bus, for instance, is faster and can get into combat with opponents of your choosing. .

Of course I can't take absolutely everything into account, but loveless didn't ask that of me either. Which I'm thankful of as I have no intention of comparing the relative usefulness of Grave Guard against Vargheists, Black Knights and Crypt Horrors against every army in the game.

He asked what do GG deliver that other units don't. I answered swathes of S6 attacks with decent survivability. Which they do. Obviously you're not taking Grave Guard if you want high speed units, that goes without saying.

[Gloryseeker]

Played empire on tues.

40 gw grave guard with asf from corpse cart got charged by 30 flagellants and a Griffon in the flank. Flagellants got reroll hit and wounds and killed 28 GG and the griffon killed 7. In return I killed 25 of the Flagellants and I crumbled.

GG = great hammers, not so good anvils :S

[warplock]

. Against common infantry with I3, Vargheists will strike first and therefore will not receive back nearly as much damage as Grave Guard with Great Weapons will, while Black Knights will strike at the same time.

Thinking about it, I3 is actually quite uncommon! Nearly everything is less (Dwarfs, Ogres, Orcs, Lizardmen, non-Wight undead), or more (all Elves are at least I5, Skaven are mostly I4 or more, Marauders are I4, Warriors I5). I believe I3 is the preserve of just 2 armies, Empire and Bretonnians.

[Frankly]

Played empire on tues.

40 gw grave guard with asf from corpse cart got charged by 30 flagellants and a Griffon in the flank. Flagellants got reroll hit and wounds and killed 28 GG and the griffon killed 7. In return I killed 25 of the Flagellants and I crumbled.

GG = great hammers, not so good anvils :S

And how many points hit your GG unit?

They're a great unit, Grave Guard have been the back bone of alot of armylists for a long time now, but even GG will go down to consentrated high strength charges ... most units will. Its part of the game.

Vargheists will strike first and therefore will not receive back nearly as much damage as Grave Guard with Great Weapons will, while Black Knights will strike at the same time.

I love my Vargheists ... LOVE THEM! In the context of the right list they're awesome. But they're such glass cannons, if they get caught by a reasonable unit they're dead, if they fluff their combat rolls on a front charges against steadfast they're dead, if they get shoot at they're dead. They just don't stand up will enough against attacks back than a GG unit can.

Varghiests do have an excellent movement phase which lets them pick and choose their combats and this is a huge bonus on the table top, so you can negate some of their short comings in combat this way. Also through having enough redirector in your list can really help out Varghiest to either get where they need to be or keep enemy targets away from them. Their best role is as a brilliant support combat unit to add to combined charges with GTs or fast moving characters for example, any time you can use their speed and the speed of other fast moving elements of a VC list to get combined charges off its usually pretty brutal.

[Wbarobinson]

Got a massacre win today against Orcs 1500pts. 6 varghiest and terrorgheist run up the flank, wolves ensure that those two units do not get charged. Meanwhile, curse of years from one of my vampires, get if, lose 4 ghouls in the 30 ghoul horde/bunker, while crypt horrors hold close to deny flanks. The terrorgheist kills 5 black orcs. His turn, wolves die, magic phase negated. Turn 2 vargheist and tg charge black orcs who reform to face them. Wiped almost clean before returning to kill one vargheist. (reroll wounds on vargs) Killed them to the last man. Rolled his team from right to left thereafter. Lost 5 horrors, but there were still 2 left before forfeit.

All feral list, very pleased.

However, in 2 days i replay with similar list against 6 mournfangs and 2 cannons in his ogres. I will die so fast... Anyway to stay feral and survive 24, t4, 2up save, 6up parry wounds which have 42 str 5ish attacks? Tg is the answer except cannons will kill it turn one. I think hexwraiths would be good... But he has a firebelly...

[Mikael.K]

Ghoulking, ghouls, crypt horrors and TG/engine makes for a very strong 1500pts list and I run something similar at that point level. Usually I fo for a standard blender lord, but you can only do so much with 375pts. Having the lord with wings in this list has it´s merits.

[SteelTitan]

Just a quick question; why do you usually see people field 14 black knights in their cav-bus setup. I've been using 10 knights + 2 characters and it has done fine. Spending another 100 points on that unit for a rank / ablative wounds seems a little steep?


Also, in my cav-bus list, I use 2x40 skeletons and 2x20 zombies as the centre-line tarpits. However, considering how easily you kill both but how easily you raise zombies and that they are considerably cheaper in larger numbers, Im thinking of dumping all skeletons. I can take 3x40 zombies + 1x30 zombies and another 2x5 Wolves for the same points (and have 18 points left). Good change?

[NitrosOkay]

Just a quick question; why do you usually see people field 14 black knights in their cav-bus setup. I've been using 10 knights + 2 characters and it has done fine. Spending another 100 points on that unit for a rank / ablative wounds seems a little steep?


Also, in my cav-bus list, I use 2x40 skeletons and 2x20 zombies as the centre-line tarpits. However, considering how easily you kill both but how easily you raise zombies and that they are considerably cheaper in larger numbers, Im thinking of dumping all skeletons. I can take 3x40 zombies + 1x30 zombies and another 2x5 Wolves for the same points (and have 18 points left). Good change?

The ablative wounds seem worth it just for disruption on the flank and in case you run into something that ends up killing an unfortunate number of black knights.

I like a unit of skeletons because they give up less combat resolution than zombies so it's less suicidal to hit something on the flank tarpitted by them, and also because they can take the screaming banner and occasionally be really annoying. Zombies and skeletons fulfill slightly different roles.

[Askari]

However, in 2 days i replay with similar list against 6 mournfangs and 2 cannons in his ogres. I will die so fast... Anyway to stay feral and survive 24, t4, 2up save, 6up parry wounds which have 42 str 5ish attacks? Tg is the answer except cannons will kill it turn one. I think hexwraiths would be good... But he has a firebelly...

Cannons aren't as super-effective against monsters as people like to think they are. You have Vargheists in the list, stick them in front of the Terrorgheist (from the angle of the Cannons). Ironblasters are easier to cope with as they can't pivot to fire, so they'll have to line up the shot in the movement phase, which may put them in an odd position. You can heal the Terrorgheist up quite well due to Invocation and the Lore attribute. No, I don't think you need to fear Cannons as much as you think - unless you stick a Ghoul King on the back of it, then for some odd reason the effectiveness of Cannon shots double, due to hitting both parts of the model. The Terrorgheist is also superb against Mournfangs, with their distinctly average Ld7 and the speed to be outside of the General's bubble.

[Mikael.K]

Just a quick question; why do you usually see people field 14 black knights in their cav-bus setup. I've been using 10 knights + 2 characters and it has done fine. Spending another 100 points on that unit for a rank / ablative wounds seems a little steep?


Also, in my cav-bus list, I use 2x40 skeletons and 2x20 zombies as the centre-line tarpits. However, considering how easily you kill both but how easily you raise zombies and that they are considerably cheaper in larger numbers, Im thinking of dumping all skeletons. I can take 3x40 zombies + 1x30 zombies and another 2x5 Wolves for the same points (and have 18 points left). Good change?

My list include 10 with 2 characters aswell, but would probably have more if the comp allowed it. Those extra wounds can turn out to be very important on the way in or if you get hit by a big spell. 3x50 zombies are a popular choices in cav bus lists. Personally I go for a big horde of 40ish ghouls and 7 Crypt Horrors (backed by a mortis engines of course) to take the hits. 2x5 wolves and a small zombie bunker fills the rest of my core. Have yet to try this list, but we´ll see how it does.

Im really intrested in what experiences you have with your cav bus list since I play something similar.

[Wbarobinson]

Cannons aren't as super-effective against monsters as people like to think they are. You have Vargheists in the list, stick them in front of the Terrorgheist (from the angle of the Cannons). Ironblasters are easier to cope with as they can't pivot to fire, so they'll have to line up the shot in the movement phase, which may put them in an odd position. You can heal the Terrorgheist up quite well due to Invocation and the Lore attribute. No, I don't think you need to fear Cannons as much as you think - unless you stick a Ghoul King on the back of it, then for some odd reason the effectiveness of Cannon shots double, due to hitting both parts of the model. The Terrorgheist is also superb against Mournfangs, with their distinctly average Ld7 and the speed to be outside of the General's bubble.

Would you fly the vargs in two groups of 3? One group per cannon (seeing as they are pretty good warmachine hunters). Does the general's leadership actually affect the TG scream? That is really sad. Would 2 banshee heroes be worth putting in the ghoul unit? I would lose a level 1 vamp with cursed book, biting blade and enchant shield. I will still have level 2 with dispel scroll and glittering.

[Askari]

Two units of 3 is fine, but run them 2 wide, so the Cannon has to potentially kill two just to reach the 'Gheist Banshees I don't like as much anymore, due to the Gheist having a much better Shriek, and you can kind of get the same deal with Cairn Wraiths (Ethereal means less attacks, and the Wraiths hit fairly hard).

[tw1386]

The Terrogheist has been golden every game I have played, but I have found he's a complete sissy in Close combat. He couldn't even finish off a Damsel by her lonesome in CC, lol.

I tend to run 2 units of 3 Vargheists and I found having two is better than a single unit of 6 as it is a bit too expensive, and less versatile in the fact it's too expensive to use as good Mage hunters (which I find Vargheists do really well). A unit of 3 costs less than most naked level 3 wizards, and not mention the lvl 4's and all the magic items.

[Wesser]

In my last battle a Terrorgheist killed a Grey seer, screamed a HPA to death and squished so many clanrats.

I dare say he's no slouch, but WS3 doesnt make him a great assassin for sure

[lisaundead]

In an ongoing run of fun games against a friend's LM army, we are both using different set-ups and learning different strengths and weaknesses of our relative armies.

My question is what tactics / army list components does VC have in dealing with a tooled up Slaan in TG block? last time I played against it using Kemmler and Krell, he caused me mucho probs (2500 pts game)?

As I say these are fun experimental games for both of us.

recently Ive been using hexwraiths, BKs and Blood Knights which he doesnt like and he deffo doesnt like Curse of Years, but how can I compete in magic phase while retaining the combat punch much needed?

thanks for advice