The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[Askari]

How is 7 wide for skeletons and such? Or should I just make everything horde width?

Not unless you like sweeping dozens of Skeletons off the field each combat phase. Bus 'em up.

[Danny76]

Ok. So 30 skeletons. 30 grave guard. 30 zombies. 30 ghouls. This is a good start block for any list?
If like to be able to vary my lists up in the characters special and rare while keeping a base of core.
Just have them all ten by three?

Cavalry 5 wide I assume is a fine size?

[Algovil]

Zombies are certainly not worth having 3x10. better as a deep units and 40 is much better, just so they do not disappear after one round of combat. Skeletons basically better deep, but can work in horde, but then you are better of with say 50 with spears, maybe screaming banner and characters for buffing fear/terror. Ghouls are good in horde, lots of attacks!

[woodster17]

Quick rules query on this thread if I may- didn't want to create a new thread for couple of questions. The Hunger- it's just one roll per turn if a kill is made right? Not one dice per kill? And can the Cairn Wraith's Chill Grasp be used in a challenge?

[Ville]

You just roll once, regardless of the number of slain enemies. I also don't see any reason why you couldn't use Chill Grasp in a challenge.

[Frankly]

How is 7 wide for skeletons and such? Or should I just make everything horde width?

Generally 5 wide.

If your got a strong magic phase and your getting support buffs off on your GG units, then those buffs should be affecting your skellies. If this is happening on a regular basis, then look for good match ups against other chaff units like skaven slaves, empire troops, gobbos, etc, etc .... even marauders. You then have a option to either win a combat or atleast get a few wounds on your target by going horde.

In the context of a list with a strong magic phase or if your dominating your magic phase, then stay flexible

[madival]

Anyone try running 3x45 horde style zombies with standard and 2x5 dire wolves as core? It's exactly 500 points and has the anvil we need. Starts us with 145 models before anything and maximizes core.

[loveless]

Not unless you like sweeping dozens of Skeletons off the field each combat phase. Bus 'em up.

Stupid question time! I've avoided the game portion of WHFB too long and forget some of the terms...I know a fair bit about the models, though

"Bus" refers to narrow frontage, several ranks, right? So Skeletons should be deep, non-Horde? Or do I have it backwards?

[Vipoid]

Stupid question time! I've avoided the game portion of WHFB too long and forget some of the terms...I know a fair bit about the models, though

"Bus" refers to narrow frontage, several ranks, right? So Skeletons should be deep, non-Horde? Or do I have it backwards?

I believe so.

Skeletons look good in hordes, but it also means you're losing your rank bonus (or, more precisely, you're lowering the rank bonus you *could* have), and if you're charged by a smaller unit, then a lot of your attacks will be wasted.


Out of interest, assuming you're not using your skeletons in a horde, should they be armed with spears or hand weapons? I ask because they get to keep their shield bonus (aside from the parry) either way, so is it worth sacrificing the 6+ parry saves for more attacks (which can also help combat resolution if they do something)?

[BooMeRLiNSKi]

Skeletons look good in hordes, but it also means you're losing your rank bonus (or, more precisely, you're lowering the rank bonus you *could* have), and if you're charged by a smaller unit, then a lot of your attacks will be wasted.

IMHO never horde up Skellies or Zombies, they are there to hold things up as long as possible, not kill. Wider frontage means more attacks back and you just lose more to combat rez.

Out of interest, assuming you're not using your skeletons in a horde, should they be armed with spears or hand weapons? I ask because they get to keep their shield bonus (aside from the parry) either way, so is it worth sacrificing the 6+ parry saves for more attacks (which can also help combat resolution if they do something)?

HW + Shield if your are not running a mortis engine, spears and shield if you are as the parry counts as a ward so you cannot double up.

[Mikael.K]

GG´s are good in horde unless you are up against units that are causing lots of wounds before you get to strike, as a unit of 30 starts losing attacks from the first kill. 35 is not a bad number for GG units. Still, vs most units you can go horde.

Cav units vary. Blood knights as wide as you can have them without making the unwieldy. You dont want ranks with those guys since you lose out on supporting attacks. Black knights should be 5-6 wide.

[SteelTitan]

Ok. So 30 skeletons. 30 grave guard. 30 zombies. 30 ghouls. This is a good start block for any list?
If like to be able to vary my lists up in the characters special and rare while keeping a base of core.
Just have them all ten by three?

Cavalry 5 wide I assume is a fine size?

Yes. However I found 30 to be on the low side for any of our troops. With close to no save, our units are whittled down fast. I think 40 Grave Guard and 40 Ghouls is what I will be running when I take out my infantry list next time.

@ Question of 'bus: Yes, that's correct. Generally 5 wide and as deep as you want.

[Vipoid]

Yes. However I found 30 to be on the low side for any of our troops. With close to no save, our units are whittled down fast.

When I first started, I was doing hordes of 30 ghouls and 30 skeletons (mainly because I lacked the models for more). However, I realised that this was a pointless formation:

Firstly, I often lost attacks because I was charged by a unit that wasn't a horde.

Second, since my units die easily and usually strike last, I'd have lost most (if not all) of the back rank before I got to swing, meaning I got no bonus attacks fro being in a horde, and simply ended up losing my rank bonus.

[Frankly]

IMHO never horde up Skellies or Zombies, they are there to hold things up as long as possible, not kill. Wider frontage means more attacks back and you just lose more to combat rez.

Again generally its good advice. Which I won't disagree with in the slightest. But I would like to add, if your consistantly getting your buffs off on your skellies(mainly through targeting your hammer units), then you have the ability to stay flexible and look at going horde against the right target selection.

I've even horded some buffed up zombies in a few fights against a weak opponent just to get the odd kill over two.

HW + Shield if your are not running a mortis engine, spears and shield if you are as the parry counts as a ward so you cannot double up.

Spears and Shields + dual engines is pretty strong on a chaff unit. And thats the thing about skellies ....

In all honestly naked skellies on their own are a pretty weak unit, they're not a good 'stand alone' unit like zombies or ghouls. Once a Skellie unit gets a few support buffs from things like vanse, C.Cart, engines ( ... which are all there to target your hammer unit) then you can actually start looking for targets to get into combat with and win against. I like this alot, there a clear difference behind the design of our core infantry units, which gives us niches options when designing lists.

When I first started, I was doing hordes of 30 ghouls and 30 skeletons (mainly because I lacked the models for more). However, I realised that this was a pointless formation ....

Yeah, its all about staying alittle bit flexible and reading the situation, I've been caught out a few times with my GG units for not going 5 wide and just grinding it out. Instead I've stayed in Horde and ended up getting wided out by better units. I personally don't think core units work very well at the 30 model mark, I prefer either to go small and raise them or start large and have the numbers to hang around in combats.

[Samaeus]

I quite often start skellies off in a horde, since I run units of about 50 anyway. My regular opponents never really go higher than 7 wide, so while you have full rank bonus there's no harm in getting the extra attacks (particularly when buffed!)

One of the nice things about being unbreakable is that combat reforms are pretty reliable with the general nearby, so as soon as the horde formation is losing you rank bonus you can just switch to 5 wide.

That said, one of the other disadvantages of the horde formation is it's very cumbersome, and could push other more useful units out of the 12" bubble, so it probably depends on your list/situation!

[Balerion]

IMHO never horde up Skellies or Zombies, they are there to hold things up as long as possible, not kill. Wider frontage means more attacks back and you just lose more to combat rez.

With the new book you can make credible combat units out of Skellies (blender vamp / fear bomb / cairn wraith heroes) and in those situations a horde could work.

[Wesser]

With the new book you can make credible combat units out of Skellies (blender vamp / fear bomb / cairn wraith heroes) and in those situations a horde could work.

Aye in a Fear Bomb where skeletons are suddenly hit on 4+ and themselves hit on a 3+ before any casting of hellish vigour and vanhels a horde is very viable.

Admiettedly the only worthwhile stuff this formation has chewed through for me was a horde of stormvermin w/ warlord, but thats not too shabby eh?

[Frankly]

Aye in a Fear Bomb where skeletons are suddenly hit on 4+ and themselves hit on a 3+ before any casting of hellish vigour and vanhels a horde is very viable.

Admiettedly the only worthwhile stuff this formation has chewed through for me was a horde of stormvermin w/ warlord, but thats not too shabby eh?

Nice. I never thought about a fear bombing my skellies. I've been adding a BSB with ScotNight, so he's a multi-use hero thats a pretty good support character already, if I can make him into a fearbomb that will really be getting alot out of his price tag.

My meta is full of rank and file chaff ready to choke my GG units to death, so for me atleast I have a heap of options for my skellies to target. If I was playing in a deathstar heavy meta I'd most likely look at going zombies be done with it.

[Ratbeast]

How do you use IoN with black nights? 2 wounds heal one model (horse and knight) or 1 wound heal whole model, as technically cavalry never count the horses wounds (rulebook page 82 or something)

[Vipoid]

How do you use IoN with black nights? 2 wounds heal one model (horse and knight) or 1 wound heal whole model, as technically cavalry never count the horses wounds (rulebook page 82 or something)

I'd have thought that you got 1 black knight back for each wound.

Since the horse's wound never actually gets used, it seems a little silly if you need to 'spend' an additional wound on it.