The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[Vipoid]

Ethereal units

Had to be done. Terrorgheists also work well, due to killing expensive high armour models is what it's purpose is. Grave Guard as ever will carve up things and Brets rely on the charge moreso than other armies, Vampires, unfortunately for them, are also quite fast and maneuverable especially using Vanhel's Danse Macabre to move units out of charge arcs. Deny them the charge and the battle is almost won.

Ghouls are particularly rubbish against Brets though, Poison is no help against massed 2+AS, Trebuchets will butcher loads of them and they cost more than Zombies and Skeletons while not being much more survivable to Treb and Lance strikes.

I'll bear that in mind, thanks.


Out of interest, how are people running Grave Guard in terms of unit-size?

[bravey]

I am currently toying with the notion of building a Vampire Counts army. Using a friends book, I have just created a 2,250 point Vampire Counts army. What I would like to know is: how good of an army is it? Would I be able to have a fighting chance during a tourney with this army?

Level 3 lore of Death Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, w/h channeling staff, heavy armor, shield, and lance.

Level 2 Necromancer w/h Lore of Vampires, dispel scroll
Level 2 Necromancer w/h Lore of Death, Master of the Dead

2 units of 40 skeletons w/h full command
2 units of 15 Dire Wolves w/h champ

10 Black Knights

Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist w/h Rancid Maw

Thoughts?

~Bravey

[Balerion]

My first thought is that the army is illegal.

Your general must have the highest Ld in the army and use the Lore of Vampires. Since a Vampire lord has higher Ld than a Necromancer, he needs to be the general in that army, and cannot take the Lore of Death.

[Askari]

It's also a poor Vampire Lord. Zombie Dragons are fine, if you have the points for them, but the Vampire Lord is more important. At at that points level, it's the only scary thing in your army so as your main Wizard, General, only Vampire and most expensive model your opponent will stick absolutely everything they have onto it until it dies. Then, what do you even have to threaten people with? 10 Black Knights? Not scary without the Banner of the Barrows and a Vampire to lead them. 80 Skeletons? Hah. Save the Dragon for 3,000pts, then you can have a L4 blender Lord riding a Zombie Dragon. Which will seriously annoy people. Until them, stick the Lord on foot, or better on a steed and run him with the Knights, use the Dragon as a second Terrorgheist. In the list you posted, the Mortis Engine isn't at it's best, it needs things like Ghouls and Crypt Horrors to make the most out of it, and even more so - Wizards with the Lore of the Vampires.

[bravey]

Hmm, thought the list was crap. Taking your suggestions into account, here is a revised list:

Level 4 lore of Death Vampire Lord on Barded Nightmaer, w/h channeling staff, heavy armor, shield, and lance.

Level 2 Necromancer w/h Lore of Vampires, dispel scroll
Level 2 Necromancer w/h Lore of Death, Master of the Dead

2 units of 40 skeletons w/h full command
1 unit of 40 Crypt Ghouls

10 Black Knights, full command, w/h lances+barding. Vamp lord in here.

Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist w/h Rancid Maw

[Spaceboy]

Level 2 Necromancer w/h Lore of Death, Master of the Dead

Why give a Necromancer with Lore of Death, Master of the Dead, he can't cast Invocation so can't raise units of Skeletons above starting size.

[madival]

has anyone had 10 hex wraiths and 6 regular wraiths and a few wraith/banshee heros at 2000 points? I railed everyone with that today at a tournament except a lizardmen player who got off two amazing magic phases with light prior to me getting into position to really claim advantage. I played against cavalry based empire (30 knights, 3 demigryph knights, 10 pistoliers, huss, captain of empire with magic weapon, general of empire on griffion with magic weapon, and light wizard level 2), goblin based O&G (Goblin warboss with fencers blade, goblin big boss bsb, level 4 goblin shaman, level 2 goblin shaman, 7 trolls, 10 spider riders, pump wagon, wolf chariot, 2 spear chukka, and a stone thrower) and the final game in which I lost turn 6 of the game barely was skin heavy lizards ( slann with mystery, rumination, cupped hands, skink priest with dispell scroll, 13 skinks, 13 skinks, 30 skinks with 3 kroxigors, 3x5 chameleon skinks, 20 temple guard, and 6 salamanders). Every army had problems with the ethereals and the lizardmen just got some lucky damage in early. It was nasty. what do you guys think?

[hazmiter]

Just won my first match with undead, 4k.
Used mannfred and kemmler as lords.
Had 4 lv2 necros, and lv1 vamp.
I just spammed raise dead and invocation for 3 turns, while marching busses of zombies ahead of my GG and MEs.
Damn nasty stuff, had my zombies chase down and kill things....

[Athlan na Dyr]

I'd still rather have the 9 or so Grave Guard (that also have that Killing Blow you love) for the same cost. A9 T4 W9 > A3/4 T5 W3. Always.

9 Grave Guard can't be put into another unit. The whole point of the Wight King is to spread out the character death dealing beyond one unit of Grave Guard, just incase you are outdeployed or the unit needs protection from characters. To be honest I don't bother with a Wight King if I've got Black Knights in the list as they perform the above task rather well.

Hmm, thought the list was crap. Taking your suggestions into account, here is a revised list:
Level 4 lore of Death Vampire Lord on Barded Nightmaer, w/h channeling staff, heavy armor, shield, and lance.
Level 2 Necromancer w/h Lore of Vampires, dispel scroll
Level 2 Necromancer w/h Lore of Death, Master of the Dead
2 units of 40 skeletons w/h full command
1 unit of 40 Crypt Ghouls
10 Black Knights, full command, w/h lances+barding. Vamp lord in here.
Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist w/h Rancid Maw

Vampire Lord is the General. He has to use the Lore of Vampires.
Other than that:
>Mortis Engines are good value when supporting a Level 4 Master Necromancer and a few cronies all with the Lore of Vampires with Blasphemous Tome and expensive units with the Regen Bubble. Your list lacks the former (it benefits precisely one wizard with tome and makes the other ones miscasts worse) and the later is questionable...
>Vampire Lord build seems a bit weak. If you want a 'do it all' Vampire Lord, he really needs Red Fury and a magic weapon for combat. The more points you put in him, the bigger the reward (plus it keeps the Black Knights safe from crumbling if you do a supporting charge).
>No bunker for your Necromancers? They are hardly durable and need to hide in something
>The big advantage skellies have over zombies is the magic banner and parry save. Decent placement of the Mortis Engine negates the later for the most part and your list doesn't take advantage of the former.

Other than that, there is a section for army lists and the tactics thread isn't it.

has anyone had 10 hex wraiths and 6 regular wraiths and a few wraith/banshee heros at 2000 points? I railed everyone with that today at a tournament except a lizardmen player who got off two amazing magic phases with light prior to me getting into position to really claim advantage. I played against cavalry based empire (30 knights, 3 demigryph knights, 10 pistoliers, huss, captain of empire with magic weapon, general of empire on griffion with magic weapon, and light wizard level 2), goblin based O&G (Goblin warboss with fencers blade, goblin big boss bsb, level 4 goblin shaman, level 2 goblin shaman, 7 trolls, 10 spider riders, pump wagon, wolf chariot, 2 spear chukka, and a stone thrower) and the final game in which I lost turn 6 of the game barely was skin heavy lizards ( slann with mystery, rumination, cupped hands, skink priest with dispell scroll, 13 skinks, 13 skinks, 30 skinks with 3 kroxigors, 3x5 chameleon skinks, 20 temple guard, and 6 salamanders). Every army had problems with the ethereals and the lizardmen just got some lucky damage in early. It was nasty. what do you guys think?

You have over 600 points of ethereal units in a 2000 point list? The page before has excellent feedback on this type of build.
Its a gimmick and one that the Army hardly needs to be competitive. Oh, and Daemons will absolutely murder you.

[madival]

You have over 600 points of ethereal units in a 2000 point list? The page before has excellent feedback on this type of build.
Its a gimmick and one that the Army hardly needs to be competitive. Oh, and Daemons will absolutely murder you.

so its never worth trying even if its for a fun build? It seemed to work to a degree

[Athlan na Dyr]

fun build? I assumed from the percentage that was ethereal that it was a dick build made to screw people that didn't take enough magic weapons.
If this isn't the case i apologise.

[Jagosaja]

How to beat Brets? With a Strigoi of course

Use chaff to slow down all but his main unit, and put your unit with Strigoi in a position to be charged, close to his main unit. When his turn begins, drink potion of strength and let him charge your red-fury-sword-of-bloodshed-S8-I8 demolisher. Of course, accept the challenge with unit champion.

[Vipoid]

How to beat Brets? With a Strigoi of course

Use chaff to slow down all but his main unit, and put your unit with Strigoi in a position to be charged, close to his main unit. When his turn begins, drink potion of strength and let him charge your red-fury-sword-of-bloodshed-S8-I8 demolisher. Of course, accept the challenge with unit champion.

Um... a couple of things:

1) what's to stop him from waiting a turn, once your ghoul king has drunk his potion? He could even move back a bit to make sure that you can't easily charge him in his turn.

2) Even if the abov doesn't happen, then you still only get one round of combat as a S8 demolisher. That will probably do some decent damage to a unit of cavalry, but what about the other units of cavalry? For the rest of the game you'll be S5, and so all his cavalry will have a 4+/5++ save against you.

[hazmiter]

Vipoid has a point.
Brets have a good mobility, and can avoid the strigoi for a while.
Spamming zombies can tie him up, possibly.....
Buses of them are hardly awe inspiring, but 2d6 + lv raised, w banner and musician, maybe 40 to start them with....

Oh btw, I found kemmler to be a godsend of a character, +1 to dispel the opponents spells is awesome.

[Askari]

Hmm, thought the list was crap. Taking your suggestions into account, here is a revised list:

Level 4 lore of Death Vampire Lord on Barded Nightmaer, w/h channeling staff, heavy armor, shield, and lance.

Can't have it. He must be the General. Ergo, must have the Lore of the Vampires. It's also pretty pointless taking a Vampire if you're not going to make use of the Vampiric Powers, at the moment you essentially just have a Level 4 Wizard Blood Knight.

9 Grave Guard can't be put into another unit. The whole point of the Wight King is to spread out the character death dealing beyond one unit of Grave Guard, just incase you are outdeployed or the unit needs protection from characters. To be honest I don't bother with a Wight King if I've got Black Knights in the list as they perform the above task rather well.

Grave Guard cannot be put in other units, but Vampires can. They're more deadly (relying on 6s to wound won't get you far) and are Wizards to boot. With the loss of any good banners too expensive for our units to take, the role of a Wight King is essentially relegated to fluff use.

On Brets;

This may be a case for the flying Strigoi build mentioned early on in the thread, more mobility than even Bret cavalry and if you can stick the flying SGK in a flank, while having another semi-decent unit to the front (or a single Spirit Host, yahahahahaha) they can't turn to face the SGK while you pummel them with attacks (I'd recommend the Ogre Blade + Other Trickster's Shard, rather than Sword of Bloodshed against Brets).

Or just go ahead and take a Cavalry based Vampire list against them, your cavalry is better than theirs (Black Knights mobility + KB, and Blood Knights are the strongest cavalry in the game) and can be resurrected Many units of Dire Wolves can stop them dual-charging and distract Men-at-Arms hordes. Yeah, I reckon Cavalry Vamps can take on Brets quite aptly.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Grave Guard cannot be put in other units, but Vampires can. They're more deadly (relying on 6s to wound won't get you far) and are Wizards to boot. With the loss of any good banners too expensive for our units to take, the role of a Wight King is essentially relegated to fluff use.

Vampires are also one hell of a lot squishier and more expensive. Don't get me wrong, the Wight King is hardly a 'must have' or a contender for best unit in the army, but I find it does have its occasional uses . The original question was comparing the two fighty hero classes and I replied with how I use the Wight King, and what I find it does better then the vampire equivalent.

[Askari]

Indeed I've found fringe uses for a Wight King too. In a Black Knight deathstar, I had a blender Vampire Lord, full command and a Level 2 Forbidden Lore Beasts Vampire Battle Standard Bearer with Screaming Banner (try saying that quickly). Now, the BSB had little protection as he had a magic banner and I didn't want him in combat therefore, the cheapest way to do it was stick a bare Wight King on a steed in the unit. Now front rank is full, Vampire BSB goes into second rank. Sorted.

That was about 3,500 IIRC though, so such an expensive deathstar wasn't all eggs in one basket, there was even a second Vampire Lord running around in 50 Grave Guard.

[Vipoid]

I'm interested to know how people run their Grave Guard.

Do you use a horde of them, or bus them, or do you use a smaller unit?

[Jagosaja]

Um... a couple of things:

1) what's to stop him from waiting a turn, once your ghoul king has drunk his potion? He could even move back a bit to make sure that you can't easily charge him in his turn.

2) Even if the abov doesn't happen, then you still only get one round of combat as a S8 demolisher. That will probably do some decent damage to a unit of cavalry, but what about the other units of cavalry? For the rest of the game you'll be S5, and so all his cavalry will have a 4+/5++ save against you.

1) That is why you deploy close to him. If Brets don't charge they will be charged, and then S3-4 won't help them much. They are effective only on charge, as most cavalry is. So, either they charge and get minced by Strigoi before they get a chance to strike, or they try to walk away 4 inches, which is crap.

2) When you have 8 S5 attacks that will strike before Brets, and re-roll, and for each wound you cause you get extra attacks that follow the same logic, a 4+/5++ save does not help that much. Out of 8 attacks he will, on average after re-rolls score 7 hits, which will turn into 6 wounds, which after saves are 2 dead horseman. This, in turn, will cause another two attacks which will, most probably score another wound. That is 3 guys down before brets have a chance to do anything, and I think that is not a joke.

Sure, there are many other ways to counter them, and I am not saying that this is the only one or even the most effective, but that it can work. Heck, you can accept a challenge with him in the first round and in the second drink the potion, ensuring he will cause damage.

Strigoi Ghoul King with Red Fury, Sword of Bloodshed and Potion of Strength is a bane for cavalry, there is no need to bash him all the time just because Vampire Lord excels at many other things over him. Anyway, nothing stops an army with him to bring Ethereals or to summon or spam Zombies, I am just saying that this is another way to do it, which I have found to work.

[Vipoid]

1) That is why you deploy close to him. If Brets don't charge they will be charged, and then S3-4 won't help them much.

Sorry, but I don't understand how you can gaurente that Brets will be charged if they don't charge you. They have 8" movement and swiftstride, you have 4". Surely it's a lot easier for them to pick their battles than it is for you to charge them?