The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[SteelTitan]

Askari, got around testing that BK bus yet? Intrested in hearing the feedback . Going to try the said BK bus along with a terrorgheist and maybe even vargheist support. Still not sure I want to let my horrors go, they are awesome! Could trade the mortis engine for a terrorgheist and get a few more horrors to offset the fact that the 5+ regen will have to do. Dont know yet. Intrested in seeing what the rest of your army includes aswell.

I had another game with my BK bus list yesterday, against a fairly good Skaven list. Both lists were build using a specific, not too restrictive comp pack, called combat 8.0 (German)...nothing too limiting for my list.

I got a bit unlucky when my Vampire BSB, who took one wound earlier, tripped over a branch and died, which cost me 365 (265+100 for bsb) victory points. Apart from that most things went according to plan. Eventually it was a 12:8 to me...would have been a 14:6 if that Vamp knew how to ride his horse.


I'm still experimenting, learning what the list (and especially the bus) can do. It was nice to see that they took off an HPA in one round of combat, even when he made 4 out of 5 regen saves against my Lord's attacks (Grrr, hurts when you don't get additional red fury attacks). Luckily, the rest of the unit had mundane flaming weapons (banner of eternal flame) and killed him off (8 wounds total) before the HPA could Thunderstomp. Next turn they charged a unit of Skaven slaves, which because of the Supernatural Horror, failed their Terror and exploded, killing a nearby Warlock Engineer, allowing me to redirect into the WL Cannon. After making short work of that, the unit reformed and charged into the Skaven's bunker netting me the points for the Grey Seer, BSB, and 30 Clanrats.

So while they were cleaning house, the Skaven player was busy fighting his way through 3x40 zombies and some chaff. Eventually, he managed to kill it all but my plan worked. I stalled most of his centre while the bus won me the game.

Two thoughts after the game:
1) It's hard getting MORE points out of this particular Skaven list because there's just so many points in that unit of 30 Plague monks + Furnace. I wasn't confident enough yet to take that unit head on. It has a lot of special attacks which ignore armour saves, which could be a real gamble. On the other hand, if I could get my Lord into B2B with the Furnace, he will probably destroy it in one round, at which point you just need to work your way through RnF and KACHING, big points!

2) My particular list might not be able to pull off BIG wins on tournaments (16:4 and up) because it's always gonna give away some victory points for the zombies and all the chaff. I don't know how problematic that is but in order to do really well I expect that my list will have to be able to score such big wins. Don't think you will ever get near the top tables if all you do is score 12:8 / 14:6 etc.

Thoughts?

[Soundwave]

I am not deploying zombies in horde formations any more i am finding 5 wide several ranks deep much more pleasant for damage control,there lasting that touch longer so can be re-bolstered with ranks quite effectively.

[SteelTitan]

I would never even consider fielding zombies in horde.

Made a small mistake in my previous post. I didn't realise during the game that cav cannot be stomped so there was no need for me to worry

[Mikael.K]

Ever considered other core apart from zombies? Big units of ghouls can be quite nice with the proper magic backup and can actually put up a fight. I have been pondering long and hard about my core section.

What support does your bus have? I have given a terrorgheist some serious consideration. Its ability to march when having the general nearby could be invaluable. Also, give your lord the other tricksters shard if he doesnt have that already :P.

[hazmiter]

Ever considered a fast undead army, your hounds count as core, have slavering charge, and can keep pace with a mounted general.
Has any one used that yet?
If so how does it go?
Sorry steeltitan, we shall keep it out of forum.

Any ideas on how to smash up witch elves? They pose a problem to me....

[SteelTitan]

Ever considered other core apart from zombies? Big units of ghouls can be quite nice with the proper magic backup and can actually put up a fight. I have been pondering long and hard about my core section.

What support does your bus have? I have given a terrorgheist some serious consideration. Its ability to march when having the general nearby could be invaluable. Also, give your lord the other tricksters shard if he doesnt have that already :P.

I posted my list for feedback yesterday. It can be found here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...VC-Cavbus-list


@ Core selection: I tried out the same list with Skeletons and I think you gain too little for the extra 2 points per model, in comparison to zombies. The whole concept of my list (NOT every cavbus list, just mine) is based on stalling the enemy's centre. Sure, skeletons sometimes get an armour save and a parry, but I don't think that weights up against paying 2 points less AND the extra d6 raising (+ being able to raise beyond starting value with both necromancers). Especially in such large numbers, those 2 points add up fast.

As for Ghouls, I like them. Just not in this list. Because the Vamp is off killing stuff, the Ghouls won't be properly supported by magic. Two Necro's can't support them well enough to justify their price. I found that Ghouls need proper support (either stick the lord in there or be real sure you get Vanhels off) to stand up to any sort of resistance. Without it, they don't make the cut. Also, one unit of 40 ghouls cost more than three units of 40 zombies while they won't hold up multiple units as long as the zombies. And that's the whole point. So yeah, you said it yourself "with proper magic backup"...it really depends on your list. After my list is done and I've played around with it long enough, I want to switch back to an infantry list. The first thing I will add there is 40 ghouls, no question about it.



@ Support: My list has lots of chaff, so I always outdeploy my opponent. This way I can always put my cavbus on a for me favourable flank. The more I play, the more I learn and I'm leaning towards at least always having the fell bats near my general because of their speed. They are great at redirecting annoying units I don't want to fight. Also, I try to have as many wolf units around him as possible. The spirit hosts kinda go whereever. Depending on the resistance on that flank, I either put my Varghulf with the cavbus or the Varghulf goes on the other flank. I think in most cases, the cavbus really doesn't need any backup.

I would like to try out the Terorgheist in this list but I can't find the points atm. It'd be nice to scream redirectors to death so that they won't get in the way of the cavbus. However, the Varghulf is a bit easier to hide and that 4+ regen has saved me more than once from incoming cannon balls. Also, shooting cannons at the cavbus is rather ineffective. With 13 knights and raising them back, it really doesn't do much (max 3 dead) which means the Terrorgheist becomes the prime target (and he really doesn't stand up well against them), whereas with a Varghulf people might continue shooting at the cavbus. The huge base also makes it tricky sometimes.

As for the Other Tricksters Shard, yeah, I would like to use it...but can't fit it in. The lord has 100 points of magic items already and the config has worked great so far.


@ Hazmiter: Someone posted a list based on that idea yesterday. I gave it rather harsh feedback (had little time), because I don't think it would work. Check out the list if you want + read my thoughts. I love Dire Wolves but I don't think they make for a good combat unit.

Witch Elves. I would take them on with my cavbus, wouldn't mind that much I think. They have a lot of attacks but only S3 so you keep your armour save. If you don't want to go that route, you can always redirect them. The are frenzied so always have to overrun. Setup a redirector in such a way that they while closing the door are angled towards the flank/away from your line...they then have to overrun towards the side of the board. Do that twice and they are effectively taken out of the game. Sounds easier than it is but I can see few other units in our army go toe to toe with 30 frenzied witch elves. Also, they don't have magic attacks, so a unit of 3+ spirit hosts will hold them up forever.

[hazmiter]

Hmm good point steel titan, I did have a typical dawn of the cheese list w 2 mortis engines, 2 corpse cart necros, 4 foot necros and 4 units of 40 zombies....... Plus a necrarch lord.....
It went rather fun, then down hill.....
How would you base a list to vs skaven, what choices are worth taking.....
I'm looking at a match vs them, I'm familiar with my DE, and chaos to an extent, sound wave and I take turns with the walking dead, and I'd like to make a undead list tailored to eat rat brains.

[Texhnolyze]

Fair enough...then its absurdly overpowered...People should go for this if they dont like friends.

Apart from that it seems like a strange answer you have there. Is that from a FAQ somewhere? I mean we've had a huge discussion about whether SiN counted for Banshee screams for instance

Yea it's strange, and I don't like it, that's why I never had a death necromancer in the same unit as a vampire lord ^^

Anyway, the link to the faq: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...book__V1_5.pdf

Page 4, the third question on the right, from the bottom

[Vipoid]

Out of interest, has anyone had any success with the Rare unit of Cairn Wraiths?

[SteelTitan]

Yeah and I love them! I'm still sad that they don't feature in my current list...I don't think they really fit its playstyle but I wouldn't think twice about taking them again in an infantry list! They are a little tricky because of their fragility but boy they can be SUCH a pain for your opponent to deal with. Because they are so expensive, you sometimes have to go to extreme measures to protect them...like burning a dispel scroll on your first turn to save them from a big magic missile

But there is just something magical about picking up those 15 dice round after round while your opponent looks as his army list desperately to find that not-taken magic item XD


I have to say thought because of their high cost + T3/2W, I understand if they didn't work for some people.

I ran a unit of 5. Try to have a Vanhels nearby because their WS3 really puts a dent in their damage output.

[Frankly]

Ever considered a fast undead army, your hounds count as core, have slavering charge, and can keep pace with a mounted general.
Has any one used that yet?
If so how does it go?
Sorry steeltitan, we shall keep it out of forum.

Any ideas on how to smash up witch elves? They pose a problem to me....

I play a fast list:

2 TG

2 x 6/8 VG

1 x CavBus

(up too)10 x 5 wolves

zombies

1 x lord on hell steed

2 x heros on hell steeds.

I was playing it alot at different point alotments, so the armylist is shifting about abit. Work and childern have got in my way of trying to nail down a solid 2.5K list. I dropped a flying ghoul king and ghoul bunker for the CavBus but really haven't been able to get a huge amount of games in with it, although at this point it seems pretty strong for a blitz/control type of list which I like palying.

The D.Wolve's S.Charge is great, but really vanguard is the most awesome thing about them for sure. It sets up your ability to control his units on turn one. S.Charge certainly helps against other list chaf and WMs. We really got lucky with the points cost for wolves.

[SteelTitan]

I agree! Maybe it's my opponent's fault for putting his warmachines and shooting units (Jezzails for instance) on the 12" line, but I regularly get first turn charges with my wolves (if i'm allowed to - vanguard rules).

Vanguard also allows you to move your wolves up and angle them in a favourable way to receive an enemy's first-turn charge. If your opponent goes for it, this puts his unit 12-13" away from my Bus, less if he overruns.

[Vaiuri]

I play a fast list:

2 TG

2 x 6/8 VG

1 x CavBus

(up too)10 x 5 wolves

zombies

1 x lord on hell steed

2 x heros on hell steeds.

I was playing it alot at different point alotments, so the armylist is shifting about abit. Work and childern have got in my way of trying to nail down a solid 2.5K list. I dropped a flying ghoul king and ghoul bunker for the CavBus but really haven't been able to get a huge amount of games in with it, although at this point it seems pretty strong for a blitz/control type of list which I like palying.

The D.Wolve's S.Charge is great, but really vanguard is the most awesome thing about them for sure. It sets up your ability to control his units on turn one. S.Charge certainly helps against other list chaf and WMs. We really got lucky with the points cost for wolves.

In 2.5k isnt this a bit hairy to play Blood and Glory? I've fallen foul of this in the past and have had to take extreme measures to protect a standard or been afraid to get my Lord as stuck in as she should be.

How do you handle those big units of Vargeists? I've found them more of a hindrance at those sizes due to the temptation to throw them at bigger units - they are SO squishy and hard to res back being vampires, I've found units of 3 or 4 are a bit better to flank with whilst freeing up points for other things.

[hazmiter]

Varghiests can munch through things in the right circumstance, as sound wave can attest to, I have had darkriders kill them off.

[Soundwave]

I am all out of red fury!Sorry the big sword is gone and i am dropping it for the utility knife! If i am making my vampire lord it will no longer consist of combat aptitude on the provision this guy will be my general.Tooled up combat vampires are fantastic at there job (hero non general types are fantastic) but for my personal style of play my undead general will no longer consist of chief head taker less his own head roll, and will generally not take a single magic item revolved around combat.Items of choice are consisting of nightsrhoud and talisman of pres.Taking on dealing and giving is 2 to many rolls for a single general to act upon.I was modeling upon a necrearch style build although i am re rolling way to many 1,s and 2,s for 75 pnts.Now looking into curse of the revenant for even more sustainability.I know you guys will think i am crazy but put yourself into your opponents shoes "oh look there is the undead general swinging his big bad sword looking all way to furious,alas i came prepared and even better he is headed my way.Vampire hunt over!"

[Frankly]

In 2.5k isnt this a bit hairy to play Blood and Glory?

lol good point. The next 3 tournaments are all pretty much pitched battle tournies. I'm pretty much focused on that at the moment. Most people are just playing straight up engagements atm, because they're getting tournament ready. Its something I'll keep an eye on in the future.

How do you handle those big units of Vargeists? I've found them more of a hindrance at those sizes due to the temptation to throw them at bigger units - they are SO squishy and hard to res back being vampires, I've found units of 3 or 4 are a bit better to flank with whilst freeing up points for other things.

Personally I'm not sure what the fuss of running big units of VGs is all about, I think people are more worried about the points commitment, because on the table top flyers are pretty easy to move around. With a mobile Lord/BsB unit frenzy isn't a problem(most of the time ).

But yes there is a targeting issue with the unit, for VGs points cost you'd hope the unit could smash any units face off. Frontal charges can spell trouble for the unit. Although there are plenty of frontal charges out there for VGs to make. One of the keys to this list is to take target models off the board, especially support chaff. VGs do an awesome job at milling down chaff buses in a limited upon of time, theres alot of chaff bus units that'll throw 10 dice to hit VGs on 4+ and wound on 5+ and I'm fine with that kind of combat actually.

The up side to a VG unit is that flying movements put them into good positions to assault soft targets and can let them switch to a back field game and wait until options become available to them if needs be.

In the context of the list, your really see that your not just paying for the combat skills, but also its ability to support combat with other fast units, this is the key factor of the unit imho.

[Vaiuri]

Thanks for taking the time to explain your tactics to me Frankly, I like to see how other people come up with the things they do as it opens more options for my own game. I've tried VGs a few times, I was shocked with just how squishy they were and reverted to knights the trusty Vargulf for flanking and chaff killing. I also really dont like how hard they are to heal - it really feels like they should have The Hunger rule or something to offset this, but I guess thats the price you pay for being so damn scary in combat!

You are quite right that I fear the points cost of the larger unit of VGs. Do you use casty Vamps on the Hellsteeds or is your Lord a high level to help keep things together?

[Frankly]

Mostly I played a DE dark rider list and southlands list during 7th edition and an all cavalry VC in 6th Edition. I really like mobility as the primary focus in armylists, so VGs are my kind of unit. If someone at the club/tournament/L.G.Store says they find VGs to fragile for a close combat unit, I have to agree. Stats wise they don't hold up well when put along side other Monsters. And your right about healing them, its a main in the neck. Luckily for us the strength of the VC armybook is great, the book gives people a numbher of really good options for their heavy hitting unit(s). If you not keen of VGs, you can still have mobility with either Black knights or Blood knights. I'm loving the fact that we have hard choices when it comes to armylist construction.

I go pretty light on magic, thats how I fit in the extra few units, it really is just a light support phase in this list. I was running it with a lvl1 ghoul king(queen)when I first started out.

Hopefully I'll get a few 2.5k games in this weekend for a better idea of what will be in the list.

[Warnoober]

1. Crypt horrors or vargeist?
2. Mortis engine with/out tome?
3. Why ever take a ghoul king. 5+ regen? Yeesh
4. Why take a wight king over a vamp hero?

[Vipoid]

4. Why take a wight king over a vamp hero?

- Cost
- Survivability (T5, 3 wounds vs T4, 2 wounds)
- Good BSB (which relates to the above)