The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[SteelTitan]

Ow sorry about that. I didn't know their hatred was infinite. Ignore my earlier post then

[Rosstifer]

Anyone tried out the 17 Black Knights with a Combat Vampire Lord and 3 other Vampires? Looks downright nasty on paper, the Black Knight models are lovely and I'm keen to dust off my Vampires for the shiny new book!

[Symrivven]

No didn't try it, I don't like deathstars for two reasons.

1. They are not much fun to play with or play against, all death stars are pretty much one trick ponies.
2. All your eggs in one basket, this also puts you more at the mercy of the dice.

[Askari]

No didn't try it, I don't like deathstars for two reasons.

1. They are not much fun to play with or play against, all death stars are pretty much one trick ponies.
2. All your eggs in one basket, this also puts you more at the mercy of the dice.

Although, let's face it, any unit with a Vampire Lord in it is automatically a deathstar... the guy alone costs 500ish pts.

[SteelTitan]

Anyone tried out the 17 Black Knights with a Combat Vampire Lord and 3 other Vampires? Looks downright nasty on paper, the Black Knight models are lovely and I'm keen to dust off my Vampires for the shiny new book!

I wrote a small review/tactica on a cav-bus list just before the old thread was shut down. Note that I use a smaller unit of Black Knights with less Vampires. However, I think the general idea is the same;

On the subject of the above / Black Knight Buss:

I want to share my initial experiences after trying it out. My list was Blender Lord, Fear Bomb Vampire in 10 Black Knights, 2x40 Skeletons, 2x20 Zombies with 2 necromancers (Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll), 3 spirit hosts, 2x2 bats, 2x5 wolves and a varghulf.

The army consists of three groups:
1. The endless tarpit (skeletons and zombies + raising with 2x level 1 necro)
2. The hammer (lord, hero + black knights (+varghulf))
3. The annoying part (chaff + redirectors (+varghulf))


Outdeploying my opponent is really quite important in this list. It allows me to save the most critical unit in the army (the hammer) until last and deploy it on the flank where I can either get in combat fastest, score as many VP as possible, or where I can start rolling down the line asap (while avoiding high S units / tarpits / etc). Group 3 is therefore really really important. With so many small units I even managed to outdeploy a Skaven army. Getting that one unit into position is key. All the opponent can do is guess (50/50%) on which flank the unit is gonna go.

Group 3 then also plays an important role in making sure the hammer gets the matchups / charges is wants by holding back and redirecting incoming units. Fell Bats do this well. While staying inside the general's range, they can easily intercept incoming units with their 20" move and hold them up for a turn.

Group 1 is there to hold up the centre of the enemy's army until the Hammer cleared the way and is ready to charge in. What I've done so far is holding group 2 back, even moving back at times, to make sure they are in combat as late as possible. Despite their numbers, it is very possible to destroy most of group 1 in two or three turns. Therefore, commiting group 1 early is problematic because, despite their rather sacrificial-ish role, it's a lot of VP if the enemy manages to kill all of it. In that case, a solid win is out of the window. Again, here Group 3 comes in by holding up the centre and making sure group 1 is in combat as late as possible.

A quick word on group 2 (the hammer); it doesn't die. The ability to bring back 4+1 plus 1+1 (or 2+1 if you invest the points in upgrading the vampire) black knights is great. Here again, getting the right fights is really important. I can't see it going anywhere if you charge the unit into Great Swords or other high S targets as the main strength of the hammer is their high armour save. So, avoid hordes of high S models that can easily kill 10 black knights in one or two rounds. The fact that the enemy will probably be WS1 due to the Fear Bomb Vampire makes the unit very very survivable. Even after being shot up by cannons I easily raised stuff back to full strength and just kept on fighting.

Main drawback until now is the risk of the hammer not being able to collect enough VP to compensate for the other two groups dying. (If everything goes well, group 1 shouldn't all die but not everything goes to plan all the time). Group 3 usually doesn't survive the game because their sacrificial role to hold up/divert units is just too important for this list.

The extra movement on the hammer (or blender lord delivery unit) makes a huge difference. I know this was a point of debate earlier on but all I can say is that the difference is very very noticeable. After playing many games with infantry units + lord, the 3d6 and extra 4" on the charge + overrunning and pursueing faster makes a BIG difference and adds a lot of flexibility as to where to commit the unit.

So much for my quick review of this particular list/strategy.

[Symrivven]

Although, let's face it, any unit with a Vampire Lord in it is automatically a deathstar... the guy alone costs 500ish pts.

I don't fully agree with you on that (though there isn't a definition of a deathstar).

In my opinion a death star is more than an expensive unit. They are intentionally build to be nigh invulnerable to close combat, ranged an magic. Generally extra characters are used to do this by carrying magic items with for example magic resistance, banners and other items that defend or boost the whole unit. Best examples would be a choosen star that if rolled successfully has few weaknesses left or the Highelf folding fortress unit.

A ghoul horde with a vampire lord will be just as susceptible to magic and shooting as one without and can relatively easy be dealt with with template weapons.
A +/- 5 man black knight unit with a lord can still be shot down in a turn of shooting and or magic.
With 17 black knights there will be few armies that can destroy it with shooting and or magic (especially if on of the vampires has magic resistance 3 and there is an ironcurse icon and possible 2 2+ ward saves versus flaming in the unit) with 4 casters chances are the few casualties done to this unit will be healed. In combat few units will be able to stand up to a vampire lord backed up with 3 vampires and 17 black knights. Finally this unit is 2 to 3 times more expensive than a lord with ghouls or with a few black knights both of which are already expensive armies. The lord with ghouls or a few black knights at least leaves enough points for the rest of the army to make sense, whereas with the death star the rest of the army will just be mandatory core, maybe a redirector here and there to support the deathstar, but the deathstar will in effect be the army.

I see the blender lord more like a greater daemon or dragon lord. Its damage output is similar if not better and its more or less as survivable (less T and wounds, but able to hide in units).

[BUB]

So just starting out with Vamps and most people seem to go with very expensive Blender Lords. Has anyone come up with cheaper Vamp Lords when points are tight?

[Askari]

As I mention above, the Vampire Lord isn't really worth it unless you can pack points into him. The only real thing you can lose is perhaps Wizard Levels (saving up to 105pts from Level 4 -> Level 1), but even then you need magical support from, at the very least, Staff of +1 to Dispel on a Level 2 Necromancer.

I guess you could also sacrifice some power for cheapness, Additional Hand Weapon is much much cheaper than Sword of Strife and Enchanted Shield, and you only lose one attack, but you lose 2 points of armour also. Or Great Weapon and Quickblood so you still strike first, but no re-rolls to hit. If you have a good armour save, such as for having HA, Shield, Barded Warhorse you could possibly get away with the Dawnstone rather than 4+ Ward (seeing as you're not a high Level Wizard, the Ward isn't quite as important, and in many situations Re-roll 2+ armour is better than 2+/4++)

Even with all those points shaved, you're still at 350ish pts.

If you want cheaper, you're going to have to sacrifice Red Fury - but if you're doing that, why are you even taking a Vampire Lord? It's not very efficient at killing and is a Level 1 Wizard.

I don't fully agree with you on that (though there isn't a definition of a deathstar).

Differing definitions then, I believe what you state are examples of good deathstars, a deathstar, unto itself, for me, is just a single unit that takes up an outrageous amount of total points for your army.

[Frankly]

I wrote a small review/tactica on a cav-bus list just before the old thread was shut down. Note that I use a smaller unit of Black Knights with less Vampires. However, I think the general idea is the same;

Nice write up.

Great unit setup, I can't wait to try it out. Its nice that deployment and decoy drops are talked about first, its THE most important factor in for a unit like that to work imho.

[SteelTitan]

Nice write up.

Great unit setup, I can't wait to try it out. Its nice that deployment and decoy drops are talked about first, its THE most important factor in for a unit like that to work imho.

Im happy you enjoyed it. Let me know how it went/what your experiences are with this setup.

[duffybear1988]

Hi Liam - nice write up. I agree totally with everything you have said apart from the fell bats (I love the little critters).

[Coldblood666]

What's your experiences with Ghouls, do they work best in big units or small and numerous units?

[Symrivven]

Big units. You can make them horde to really push the number of attacks they can deliver. Larger units can suffer more casualties before they lose fighting models. Larger units are harder to wipe out at once, thus increasing the chance you can resurrect models. Larger units have more static combat resolution which wont hurt ghouls because they are good not great in combat. If you loose combat one unit will only suffer one crumble result, while more units suffer in total more crumble damage even though you lose by the same amount. Finally we don't need them as bunkers, redirectors, drops or speedbumps because we have other more suitable units for that.

[Coldblood666]

Big units. You can make them horde to really push the number of attacks they can deliver. Larger units can suffer more casualties before they lose fighting models. Larger units are harder to wipe out at once, thus increasing the chance you can resurrect models. Larger units have more static combat resolution which wont hurt ghouls because they are good not great in combat. If you loose combat one unit will only suffer one crumble result, while more units suffer in total more crumble damage even though you lose by the same amount. Finally we don't need them as bunkers, redirectors, drops or speedbumps because we have other more suitable units for that.

Awesome, thanks

Looks like hordes it is then. Do ghoul units benefit from added characters or no? Like wraiths or wight kings?

[Askari]

Wight Kings provide no buff mechanic, and as such are pretty pointless in general, nevermind in Ghoul units. Wraiths are okay, they add a little punch against armoured opponents while simultaneously weakening the offensive power enemy unit (unless they all have magical attacks) because they can't hurt the Wraith.

[BUB]

[QUOTE=Askari;6194487]As I mention above, the Vampire Lord isn't really worth it unless you can pack points into him. The only real thing you can lose is perhaps Wizard Levels (saving up to 105pts from Level 4 -> Level 1), but even then you need magical support from, at the very least, Staff of +1 to Dispel on a Level 2 Necromancer.

I guess you could also sacrifice some power for cheapness, Additional Hand Weapon is much much cheaper than Sword of Strife and Enchanted Shield, and you only lose one attack, but you lose 2 points of armour also. Or Great Weapon and Quickblood so you still strike first, but no re-rolls to hit. If you have a good armour save, such as for having HA, Shield, Barded Warhorse you could possibly get away with the Dawnstone rather than 4+ Ward (seeing as you're not a high Level Wizard, the Ward isn't quite as important, and in many situations Re-roll 2+ armour is better than 2+/4++)

Even with all those points shaved, you're still at 350ish pts.

If you want cheaper, you're going to have to sacrifice Red Fury - but if you're doing that, why are you even taking a Vampire Lord? It's not very efficient at killing and is a Level 1 Wizard.

Thanks for the reply as you say if you're not taking Red Fury whats the point. I guess was hoping of squeezing in a Vamp Lord plus a lvl 4 Necro on Death.

[SteelTitan]

You can but you're always losing out on either the defensive or offensive capability of your vampire. If it's the offensive, why still spend so many points on it (same reason why many other races don't take a lord level fighter). If it's defensive, you're just risking losing your general and with that the army as a whole (crumbling).

However, they are certainly people that field both but you'll be tight for points you can spend on your vampire. Try it out. Take a (naked) level 3 or 4 M.Necro with maybe one item and then spend the rest on tooling up your level 1 vampire lord.

[SideshowLucifer]

We have been playing 1500pt games with no lords lately just to ease new players into the game, and I have to say it's been fun. VC is a tough army without a lot of fighty characters, but I am learning that numerous level 1 necros are great at keeping the army running as a whole. Hopefully, playing under these restrictions will help me reduce my lord dependence at high point values.

[Easystreet]

If you want cheap blender vamp you can go to a baby (hero) vamp build. It looks like this: Its roughly 200 points.

1 Vampire (Vampiric; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Undead)
1 Sword of Swift Slaying
1 Charmed Shield
1 Talisman of Protection
1 Red Fury

You can still get up to 8 wounds with him. Str 5, WS 6, In 6, Atk 4. He is easily killed by snipers or death magic. If you get him in combat he is hurting units. I had him die to a block of Lizardmen temple guard while in a block of GG. He killed 8 on his way out. With those 8 and the GG wounds I won combat, he failed his panic check, ran and i caught him. The baby vamp wasnt my general so it wasnt a total loss. I still got more points than my opponent. If you go in knowing he is a bit sacrificial, plan for it, and are ok with that. Then he's your guy.

[Kayosiv]

Wight Kings provide no buff mechanic, and as such are pretty pointless in general, nevermind in Ghoul units. Wraiths are okay, they add a little punch against armoured opponents while simultaneously weakening the offensive power enemy unit (unless they all have magical attacks) because they can't hurt the Wraith.

Neither of those things are true. Wight kings with a great weapon are stronger than wraiths and unless you have 3+ wraiths in a unit (or I guess if you're fighting a wider unit than yours and the wraith is on the end) he will not reduce the amount of damage a unit can take because the enemy can just target models adjacent to him. The only things wraiths do that is useful in units is cause terror.

Wight kings are nice because they have killing blow, making characters afraid to challenge them, and because they have good leadership, which DOES matter. I haven't played two games in a row with vampire counts where I haven't had to take some sort of leadership test.