The New Vampire Counts 8th Edition Tactica

[Soundwave]

@ 2000 given the damage quota bust them on leadership bombs also that is why i take a dreadlord not sorceress lord in little punch on"s!

[Vipoid]

Just fought Orcs and Goblins for the first time - victory for the undead!

I thought I'd lost when he killed my general (why did I decide to give General Fail, the Ghoul King, another chance...?), but thankfully I had a vampire to take over the army (which, at that point, consisted of said vampire and his unit of ~35 grave guard).

However, in addition to invocation, my vampire had a trick up his sleeve - Raise Dead! He kept churning out small units of skeletons to act as road blocks for my opponent's black orc squad (which included Grimgor Ironhide, who'd killed my Ghoul King). One bonus was that his orcs only had I2, so my skeletons could whittle them slightly with each combat. Finally, my grave guard left my vampire behind (where he was safer), and charged Grimgor's depleted squad. Most of Grimgor's squad was wiped out, and my opponent conceded, since the grave guard still had just under 30 models, and were about to be joined by a unit of skeletons (which would flank the orcs).

Anyway, some thoughts:

- Strangely, this is the first game I've actually won through attrition
- Blimy Grimgor is nasty - 5 S8 attacks on the charge with ASF at WS8
- Raise Dead is very useful when your opponent has I2...

[Frankly]

I have a question about the black knight bus lists. How do you guys deal with goblin lists with lots of bolt throwers, doom divers, fanatics, and chariots ? They have enough chaff to out deploy the bus, enough no armor save war machines to kill the bus and potentially bolt thrower the lord to death and they have the heavy counter assault units needed to break the bus when weakened. Also, their magic is pretty strong for cheap.

NG(and other)horde lists can have a hard time getting all their force to bare because of a long deployment line and a staggered first turn or two(if redirected). You can generally try to control one flank with chaff drops and redirectors while concentrating on breaking up your opponents other flank with combined charges. CavBus lists with a good amount of mobility are really good at this, because they have the pace to redeploy(if needs be) and take advantage of getting onto the flanks of a long battleline.

I run atleast 2 hellstead vampires, VGs and TGs to support my bus. So I either wait for a horde list to stagnate through control and/or blitz his support units like chariots and MWs and get into the opponents back field pretty quick.

Don't central deploy. String out your chaff drops and use either vampire movement or vanguard units outside of generals march bubble to push up the table so you don't have to rely on a central drop for the CavBus + general.

Look for zones that aren't covered by his General/BsB bubble. Its usually a good place to target and cause panic checks.

Your opponent will generally have more drops, but after your opponent has finished deploying his chaff you can pretty much figure out where his remaining units are going, espcially his general. Its very common to see a central deployment by his General/bsb because of the lack of high leadership of his list. So place your heavy hitter accordly.

Push wolves up to bring out fanatics.

Push your bats over to target MWs.

Speaking of witch how do you as a V.C player stop the exploitation of the fact you are undead ....and the fact your core units get smacked down quicker than they can get back up)?

Game control is a huge part of 7th Edition and because of part of VCs core selection, we can control games very well.

Our zombies and wolves are brilliant. I don't know if the designers just got lucky, but they gave us the two best bare-bones-budget chaff drops in the game. Both units aren't deployed for winning combat, they're both there to stop your opponent's units from getting into the right combats and winnning them.

Wolves are just 100% undercosted. I'd pay 10 pts if not more for a immune to pyshe unit that can vanguard and cause fear with movement 9. They're athe best speed bump out there for their points cost.

Zombies are the golden boys of annoying units to face. Opponents have to make the crap choice of either sending a good valued unit aginst them to crumble the zombies or risk sitting through 3 or 4 combat phases to net only a few points. Again they're a cheap drop, they can get to massive sized foot prints that can't be avoided, they cause fear, immune to pyshe, some lists just aren't geared for alot of zombie drops.

They both are so good at their jobs, it gives the rest of the armybook a very strong control platform to work off.

[Kayosiv]

I have a question about the black knight bus lists. How do you guys deal with goblin lists with lots of bolt throwers, doom divers, fanatics, and chariots ? They have enough chaff to out deploy the bus, enough no armor save war machines to kill the bus and potentially bolt thrower the lord to death and they have the heavy counter assault units needed to break the bus when weakened. Also, their magic is pretty strong for cheap.

Wolves to take out war machines and spirit hosts to hold up chariots has been working for me since 6th edition. Now that the wolves have vanguard and the spirit hosts can be dropped 1 base per unit, it's even easier than before.

[madival]

Wolves to take out war machines and spirit hosts to hold up chariots has been working for me since 6th edition. Now that the wolves have vanguard and the spirit hosts can be dropped 1 base per unit, it's even easier than before.

Spirit hosts suck, but the wolves will get murdered by fanatics most of the time. Spread them out around the war machines and throw them in place you want.

[Kayosiv]

Spirit hosts suck against demons of chaos maybe, but against many armies they are unbelievably valuable.

I've had single spirit hosts earn me over ten times their point cost in 1 charge or in 1 combat round on numerous occasions. I can only assume that you're trying to kill things with their combat prowess and found them lacking (which they are). They're a 45 point unit that causes terror. Magical items that cause terror cost 25 points. They also happen to be invulnerable to most forms of attack. For what they do, they are dirt cheap and amazing.

[NitrosOkay]

Spirit hosts suck against demons of chaos maybe, but against many armies they are unbelievably valuable.

I've had single spirit hosts earn me over ten times their point cost in 1 charge or in 1 combat round on numerous occasions. I can only assume that you're trying to kill things with their combat prowess and found them lacking (which they are). They're a 45 point unit that causes terror. Magical items that cause terror cost 50 points. They also happen to be invulnerable to most forms of attack. For what they do, they are dirt cheap and amazing.

Spirit Hosts only cause fear.


Still worth taking on the flanks though.

[Soundwave]

Anyway, some thoughts:

- Strangely, this is the first game I've actually won through attrition
- Blimy Grimgor is nasty - 5 S8 attacks on the charge with ASF at WS8
- Raise Dead is very useful when your opponent has I2...[/QUOTE]
re;Vipoid
I am enjoying fighting orcs as well as all the other 8th ed book.(less cheese) Grimgore is scary but thankfully his bodyguard are not as you found out

[Kayosiv]

Spirit Hosts only cause fear.

Well... you see...

Yeah my bad. Must've confused them with Wraiths rule-wise. They're still amazing though.

[tehhelios]

Had a game against Shadow lore Dark Elves today.

Even Grave Guard and Vampire Lord can't stand the fury that is, frenzied Mindrazor Corsairs, cast with IF with hardly a downside. Combat res of +27 to him crumbled away evertything that was still alive. Indeed, there was nary a combat where odds were in my favour. Hydra crushed my Varghulf only to overrun into Ghouls and crush them. Terrorgheist disappeared into an IF Pit of Shades. Executioners butchered my Skeleton bunker, okay, that was expected, but I just didn't have anything that stood a chance.

I think you need a few fast elements against elves so you get to decide when to engage.
Spirit hosts seems ideal, small unit of varheist to charge his magician and try take him out early.

Spirit hosts suck against demons of chaos maybe, but against many armies they are unbelievably valuable.

I've had single spirit hosts earn me over ten times their point cost in 1 charge or in 1 combat round on numerous occasions. I can only assume that you're trying to kill things with their combat prowess and found them lacking (which they are). They're a 45 point unit that causes terror. Magical items that cause terror cost 25 points. They also happen to be invulnerable to most forms of attack. For what they do, they are dirt cheap and amazing.

I like a unit of 3 so they dont all crumble in 1 phase against combat units, this let me set up flank charges.

[Soundwave]

Spirit hosts suck against demons of chaos maybe, but against many armies they are unbelievably valuable.

I've had single spirit hosts earn me over ten times their point cost in 1 charge or in 1 combat round on numerous occasions. I can only assume that you're trying to kill things with their combat prowess and found them lacking (which they are). They're a 45 point unit that causes terror. Magical items that cause terror cost 25 points. They also happen to be invulnerable to most forms of attack. For what they do, they are dirt cheap and amazing.

I am yet to use spirit hosts yet but that makes them worth considering.

[Askari]

I think you need a few fast elements against elves so you get to decide when to engage.
Spirit hosts seems ideal, small unit of varheist to charge his magician and try take him out early.

I agree entirely, it was simply as case that I took my 2,500pt list and had to adjust down to fit the other player's limit. Which, as ever, results in some oddities in the list (such as only 30 Grave Guard, who takes only 30?!). A Black Knight bus with Crypt Horror support, rather than Grave Guard + Monsters, would probably have been far more effective.

Soundwave: Spirit Hosts are absolutely amazing. Seriously, units of 1 cost almost nothing and are completely immune to the vast majority of damage in the game. They're reasonably quick and have enough wounds to soak up a few rounds of combat res even if they fail to do any damage.

[MOMUS]

Spirit hosts suck.

Spirit hosts are amazing, i fear the day i have to face an army lead by a few of these chaps run solo.

Man, sometimes i wish i collected undead.

[Texhnolyze]

Ok sorry to hijack the thread but...

Anyone know something about the VC FaQ ?

[Vipoid]

Ok sorry to hijack the thread but...

Anyone know something about the VC FaQ ?

I do indeed know something about it - it doesn't exist.

[Maoriboy007]

NG(and other)Our zombies and wolves are brilliant. I don't know if the designers just got lucky, but they gave us the two best bare-bones-budget chaff drops in the game. Both units aren't deployed for winning combat, they're both there to stop your opponent's units from getting into the right combats and winnning them.

Not sure about best, they are fairly limited to what you described, but I agree they are pretty good disposable units. Zobies are still awful in combat though

Wolves are just 100% undercosted. I'd pay 10 pts if not more for a immune to pyshe unit that can vanguard and cause fear with movement 9. They're athe best speed bump out there for their points cost.

Woah! Slow down Tex I think you're getting a bit exited by the fact they dont completely suck like in the last book. I'll grant that they are fairly costed, but underpriced? They're a soft fast cavalry unit thats unstable and thats limited in speed and function by the undead rule as compared to other cavalry units. Don't get me wrong , I'm not knocking them I think they are perfectly priced for a unit that will pretty much never see the end of a battle, they do about half as much as thier living equvalents, which is why they cost half as much.

[hazmiter]

Ok, terrorghiest, better alone, or take as mount for ghoul king.... I have a list written for today, and it has a healthy dose of chaff, and other things besides.
Should I take the terrorghiest ghoul king, or go a 2nd vamp lord, forbidden knowledge.....

[Kayosiv]

Ghoul Kings imo, are not worth taking unless you can have some other character as your general, which is very hard to do except in very high point games. Ghoul Kings pay for having poison and 5+ regeneration, but I have never seen a build with them that does not give them a magic weapon or a ward save. Ghoul Kings can't gain magic levels, nor can they wear armor, and they do not appear to be discounted for this.

So, with that in mind I take a Terrorgheist without a ghoulking mount. I've played several games with a dragon mounted lord, and his 2+ armor save and 4+ ward save is barely enough to keep him safe. I shudder to think what it would be like having no armor and only a 5+ save.

To answer questions about "second lords" etc I'd really need to know more about your list. I don't really think you need 2 vampire lords up until over the 3000 point mark, as one is plenty. I take a fighty lord and a Master Necromancer lord with no heroes in my list, but my list is tailored to fit that. One of the cool things about the new book is all the options, so what type of army are you thinking about running?

[Frankly]

Not sure about best, they are fairly limited to what you described, but I agree they are pretty good disposable units. Zobies are still awful in combat though

Game control is a huge part of 7th Edition ... they gave us the two best bare-bones-budget chaff drops in the game

You get what you pay for and we get units that are stripped back to the bone, they're cheap and nasty. I like that. We only get the basics(+ immune to pyshe + fear) and pay for the basics and thats all you need for a chaff/redirector. I think they're the best budgeted 'dispoable units' in the game. The only speed bumps that come close budget wise are slaves and Night goblins in rank and file.

I certainly won't disagree with you about both units combat skills, but:

At no point did I bring up that either unit was good in combat, it just won't happen . I didn't even bring up +1 str on the charge for wolves, because for me atleast their primary role is that of a cheap redirector. And the point of my post was control not fighting skills, you put it best when you called then 'disposable units', They're there to die while taking away options from your opponent for a turn or a phase or two, they're certainly not there to win combats.

Woah! Slow down Tex

I'm not sure why I lol'ed when I was this. I lived in New Zealand for a while, you kiwi's always made me laugh out loud.(off topic: All Blacks 60:00 Ireland )

... I'll grant that they are fairly costed, but underpriced? They're a soft fast cavalry unit thats unstable and thats limited in speed and function by the undead rule as compared to other cavalry units. Don't get me wrong

Fare calls. I should explain myself on this better. I now own 88 dire wolves. I'd pay up to 10pts per wolves to field when, I'd most likely pay up to 12pts to get such a good redirector onto the table top.(Even though this kinda would ruin my argument that they're the best bugdeted chaff drop in the game, but never mind )

The only thing I'd disagree with in your post is about speed and function.

A Dire wolf unit can and have won me games in the past(just talking about 7th Ed) and for a minimum 40pt unit this is a big thing, if the same wolf unit would cost 60pts, I could live with that. Usually its all about that critical redirect/speed bump position they take up on the flank or side of my GG unit to keep my opponent's supporting unit OUT OF COMBAT and give my GG unit that chance to compete on its own terms in my opponents combat phase and then get re-buffed again in my turn. The ability to control combats phase by having a good amount of redirectors(I take 5-6 wolf units)wins me games.

Vanguard + 9m is more than enough to get wolves where they need to be and into position to control. If not. A march move out of the generals bubble has always been enough as well. In 99% of cases after their first movement phase, 9" is enough for a small reposition. I have almost no issues with their movement.

I think they are perfectly priced for a unit that will pretty much never see the end of a battle, they do about half as much as thier living equvalents, which is why they cost half as much.

This for me makes them one of the best chaff drops in the game. Your paying for them for one primary role: redirect. Not as a work horse, not to shoot, not to flee, not(in general)hunt light targets, not to flank. This is why I love their design, their 'living equvalents' can have all the bells and jingles in the world, they just have to pay for it. Wolves have a few undercosted skills that work in nicely as a redirecting unit, but mostly they are CHEAP, the most importnat factor in a unit that will 'pretty much never see the end of battle'.

Sorry for the long reply. :P

[Vipoid]

Ok, terrorghiest, better alone, or take as mount for ghoul king.... I have a list written for today, and it has a healthy dose of chaff, and other things besides.
Should I take the terrorghiest ghoul king, or go a 2nd vamp lord, forbidden knowledge.....

I'd always take terrorghiests alone, for a few reasons:

1) Apparently others have had success with the Ghoul King, but I haven't. Mine is nicknamed General Fail, because he's died in every single game he's ever been used in. personally, I'd rather just get 2 terrorghiests (which would be cheaper), or simply spend the points elsewhere.

2) When I use my terrorghiest, there are frequently scenarios where I want to potentially suicide it. For example, flying up to a Bloodthirster and screaming, in the hopes of depleting its wounds. If it dies, then all well and good, but if it lives (not unlikely with 5 wounds and a 5+ ward), then my terrorghiest is as good as dead, and I don't want my Ghoul King added to the tally.

Out of interest, have you considered taking a master necromancer, instead of a second vampire lord?