Apothecaries, When is a marine picked to become one?

[tkohlmetz]

At what point in a marines career is he selected to become an Apothecary? Are candidates weeded out right away like Librarians and Chaplains, or do they wait until the marine has risen through the ranks, scout, devastator, assault, tactical?

I think it's very possible they get selected at Tactical, because they need proven warriors with grit to get into the the thick of things to tend to the wounded or retrieve geneseeds. But I haven't been able to find anything to suggest their career advancement.

[Terminatorphoenix]

I'm not sure there's ever been anything said on the subject but logic would dictate it's at roughly the same time that Techmarines are chosen.

[Orthodox]

At what point in a marines career is he selected to become an Apothecary? Are candidates weeded out right away like Librarians and Chaplains, or do they wait until the marine has risen through the ranks, scout, devastator, assault, tactical?

I think it's very possible they get selected at Tactical, because they need proven warriors with grit to get into the the thick of things to tend to the wounded or retrieve geneseeds. But I haven't been able to find anything to suggest their career advancement.

The premise of this question is wrong, because marines go from scout to battle brother to veteran, and once they are battle brothers they can be chosen for specialties like apothecaries, chaplains, or techmarines, or to a command track as sergeants. There are no "ranks" of assault or tactical marine, only battle brothers who happen to be in the ninth company or in the battle companies' assault squads. Apothecaries are chosen at some time after they have been initiated into battle-brotherhood. That's why you haven't been able to find anything referring to apothecaries having one of those ranks.

[The Devourer]

Unfortunately tkohlmetz is correct. It doesn't make sense but current fluff says marines progress through different roles from Scout -> Devastator->Assault marine-> Tactical-> veteran.

[Vaulkhar]

THis is completely unsupported by any canon that I can remember, but I'd always supposed that Chaplains, Apothecaries and Techmarines could be pulled out of the ranks at any point in their careers, provided they demonstrate aptitude for the role.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

I suggest you read the Tome of Fire series by Kyme. There is an applicable situation in that series that answers your question.

Apparently, ALL marines are capable of performing apothecary duties, and are selected from the ranks on a "need" basis to become apothecaries.

[Orthodox]

Unfortunately tkohlmetz is correct. It doesn't make sense but current fluff

No. This is your problem. Initiates join a company that happens to use only devastator squads, and they graduate to successively to companies that use only assault and then tactical squads. They keep the same rank the entire time, because they are monastic knights and that's how battle-brethren work. When they are in a company, they have to be in one of that company's squads, and some companies only have one type of squad. That doesn't mean that there is such a thing as an assault marine who can be promoted to a different, non-existent rank. The members of devastator squads in battle companies are all alumni of the eighth and tactical reserve companies.

So initiates/brothers, the thing marines become after they are scouts, become apothecaries at the same time they can become sergeants. It doesn't mean a marine is good at leadership or medicine, it means the apothecarion has an empty a spot on the roster, and they go out looking for a marine who can fill it. Also, the way things do work does make sense. I don't know why people can't do this themselves.

[Chem-Dog]

I would lean towards the idea of natural aptitude. It seems logical to me that Astartes Chapters would give their aspirants a certain level of training in the field anyway to allow them to perform at least basic triage on the battlefield (Basic in terms of Astartes physiology anyway), perhaps "natural aptitude" is then the guys who are most receptive to that particular training regime or programme of psycho-indoctrination.
It could be a post that a Marine chooses and studies for. We are talking about a quasi-monastic order here after all, so it could variously be a form of penance, a reward for bravery or even a "calling" revealed by solemn prayer and revelation or even a duty rotation that some Marines just stick with (I think most Chapters would be flexible enough to allow individuals who excel in a particular role to continue in it after any obligatory time served).

[Empirespy]

No. This is your problem. Initiates join a company that happens to use only devastator squads, and they graduate to successively to companies that use only assault and then tactical squads. They keep the same rank the entire time, because they are monastic knights and that's how battle-brethren work. When they are in a company, they have to be in one of that company's squads, and some companies only have one type of squad. That doesn't mean that there is such a thing as an assault marine who can be promoted to a different, non-existent rank. The members of devastator squads in battle companies are all alumni of the eighth and tactical reserve companies.

So initiates/brothers, the thing marines become after they are scouts, become apothecaries at the same time they can become sergeants. It doesn't mean a marine is good at leadership or medicine, it means the apothecarion has an empty a spot on the roster, and they go out looking for a marine who can fill it. Also, the way things do work does make sense. I don't know why people can't do this themselves.

And what evidence do you have to support this? Unfortunately, I don't have my source books with me, so I can't tell you which ones it's in, but basically in a codex chapter, scouts become devastators, so they can get used to using power armour in battle, away from immediate danger. Then they progress to assault marines, so they can hone the close combat skills, and then they become Tactical marines, where they are equal in long range and short range, and are experienced enough in the way of war to know which is the best tactical decision. They are the most tactically flexible unit. They will then become veterans after many decades of service. Should a marine be suited to a more specialised role, they will stick to a path, such as a devastator, or even a scout (some marines may have an aptitude for stealth, so take up the the lighter smaller scout armour again). I would presume that Apothecaries are the same as the other marines outside of the normal command structure, and are plucked out as initiates, like librarians, but I can't remember reading about them in particular.

[Orthodox]

And what evidence do you have to support this? Unfortunately, I don't have my source books with me, so I can't tell you which ones it's in, but basically in a codex chapter, scouts become devastators, so they can get used to using power armour in battle, away from immediate danger. Then they progress to assault marines, so they can hone the close combat skills, and then they become Tactical marines, where they are equal in long range and short range, and are experienced enough in the way of war to know which is the best tactical decision. They are the most tactically flexible unit. They will then become veterans after many decades of service. Should a marine be suited to a more specialised role, they will stick to a path, such as a devastator, or even a scout (some marines may have an aptitude for stealth, so take up the the lighter smaller scout armour again). I would presume that Apothecaries are the same as the other marines outside of the normal command structure, and are plucked out as initiates, like librarians, but I can't remember reading about them in particular.

We said the same thing. It's just a question of lazy editing or interpretation. Devastator is a type of squad that a brother joins. The ten marines can be referred to collectively as "devastators," but individually the membership doesn't confer a different pay grade or rank that, for example, has to stand up when an assault squad member enters the room. They join devastator squads in the devastator company first because it's an easy job, not because it's lower on a totem pole. Members of battle companies probably have to fill in in other types of squad all the time.

What is inaccurate is saying that tactical marines become veterans. Veterans, after all, form multiple types of squad: terminator squads and tactical squads, or sternguard/vanguard if you prefer. They are promoted from battle brothers and brother sergeants of multiple squad types. Similarly, there is no reason to say that an initiated marine "sticks to a path" when they can complete a rotation through the companies and be recruited by the eighth or tenth company captain who is looking for some experienced personnel. Certainly, most tenth company sergeants earn their iron skull somewhere else.

Marines are initiates before they become apothecaries, which might be demonstrated by the Blood Angels' junior apothecary. What can you mean by "initiate?" The uninitiated scouts might be novices, postulants, probitors or even neophytes, as in the Temlars' crusader squads. That's the primary use of the term initiate, and appropriately, it refers only to marines who are fully initiated.

The main use of a military body like a chapter is to put bodies in an area and point guns at things. Since brother-sergeants and captains carry mostly side arms, they are accessories to that purpose. Instead of being marines+, they effectively have support or infrastructure jobs. This is the right comparison for apothecaries. Companies need 10-15 sergeants to work effectively, so some marines are diverted away from their primary job of bolter-pointing to fill those spots. A chapter need maybe 20 apothecaries, so they skim off some of the battle brothers to work in the apothecarion.

Chapters need something to do with their postulants who turn out to be psykers. They might just kill them, but they still need some structure for identifying which ones are psychic, and it makes it harder for the occasional marine whose powers emerge later in life. Psyker-neophytes have to be marked out because psykers are dangerous. Other jobs, which select for skills instead of quirks of biology, might not use any formalized apprenticeship with marines until they have accrued a record. Apprentice chaplains, eg, were at one time only eligible if they had earned a "devout" badge. Of course, the same is true for the iron halos, et al, of squad leaders, sergeants, and captains: marines earn the appropriate honor marking, and then when a specialty needs new members, they select from the laureates. Of course, they will have been exposed to the specialties during afternoon firing rites, as explained in the various daily schedules in white dwarfs and codexes.

[Fangschrecken]

So basically it goes: scout (10th) to devestator (9th) to assault (8th) to tactical (6th and 7th) and when they are in one of those five companies they are lent out to companies 1 through 5 for whatever. Soon after they join the 6th or 7th company they are fully trianed in all apsects of war and can be promoted to a a squad in companies 2 through 5. This promotion may or may not factor in thier aptitude for one of the three squad types and may consider what roles in the battle companies need filling. I would imagine that at this point (being in the 6th or 7th company) the ones who show the most fervor will devote more of their studies to becoming chaplains, the ones who show thechnical aptitude devote more time to machines and maybe spend more time in the motor pool and eventualy are sent to Mars to become techmarines (do other forge worlds train techmarines?) (this could also varry between chapter because not all marines in a chapter's motor pool will be techmarines or aspiring techmarines, chronos as an example) and thirdly those who demonstrate an above average (compared to thier brothers) understanding of the apothecaries arts train further in that field. And some go back to the 10th company to train new recruits.

I would imagine that each marine spends his time outside battle studying and preparing in one way or another and some choose to spend more time studying to master the ways of the apothecary or techmarine. In the case of techmarines I would figure they simply volunteer to spend more time fighting with vehicles or helping in the forge.

Librarians should have been picked out while scouts or even before that. Thier progression probably depends on the chapter but I figure they go through the same progression but while being tutored by a senior librarian in the chapter.

Veterans would come from anyone in the battle companies and replace a loss in one of the squads. In the new vanguard and sternguard dichotomy they are probably chosen based on thier aptitudes, so anyone from a 2nd 3rd 4th or 5th company tactical or assault squad could be promoted to vanguard and anyone from a tactical or devestator squad in those companies can become a sternguard. The terminator equivalents would follow the same rule. This isnt to say that a assault marine from the 3rd company couldnt become a sternguard but I think that by the time they get to the battle companies they sort or choose what role they can (with some restrictions) and then spend thier time perfecting that style of combat.

[yabbadabba]

Apothecaries tend to be a part of the chapter elite, and are veteran warriors. So putting two and two together I'd say that Marine pragmatism would look to those veterans who do not have as advanced or innate combat or leadership skills as others, but have potential, but offer them an alternative route.

[Sai-Lauren]

I would lean towards the idea of natural aptitude. It seems logical to me that Astartes Chapters would give their aspirants a certain level of training in the field anyway to allow them to perform at least basic triage on the battlefield (Basic in terms of Astartes physiology anyway), perhaps "natural aptitude" is then the guys who are most receptive to that particular training regime or programme of psycho-indoctrination.
It could be a post that a Marine chooses and studies for. We are talking about a quasi-monastic order here after all, so it could variously be a form of penance, a reward for bravery or even a "calling" revealed by solemn prayer and revelation or even a duty rotation that some Marines just stick with (I think most Chapters would be flexible enough to allow individuals who excel in a particular role to continue in it after any obligatory time served).

I'd go with the calling version personally - Techmarines are described as being those Marines that show a natural aptitude for technology, and Apothecaries could equally be those with an aptitude for medicine.

They could be assessed when they're initiates (before they're even a scout) - certainly psychic abilities would be assessed at this time, and the initiate taken off the Librarium to try and train their minds - or executed because they're too dangerous. However, I wouldn't say they have any actual training into their specialisation until after they've graduated from the Scouts and become full Marines.

[Empirespy]

We said the same thing. It's just a question of lazy editing or interpretation. Devastator is a type of squad that a brother joins. The ten marines can be referred to collectively as "devastators," but individually the membership doesn't confer a different pay grade or rank that, for example, has to stand up when an assault squad member enters the room. They join devastator squads in the devastator company first because it's an easy job, not because it's lower on a totem pole. Members of battle companies probably have to fill in in other types of squad all the time.

I never said it denoted any rank or superiority, it's just the way that progression through the different arts of war. If a marine is good at being a devastator, he may stay one for the rest of his career, and therefore become much older and potentially wiser than an assault marine. They just move through the companies, and then find where their strengths lie. That is why scouts don't become a tactical marine, unless the chapter is in dire circumstances. That's not to say they aren't able to do so, it's just the way that they work.

[ManOfRust]

This is of course all made massively more complicated when you factor in the more cult-orientated chapters, where each step and progression from aspirant to neophyte, initiate and battlebrother is ritualised and celebrated. Complete with prayers, fasting and/or feasting, holy days, high days, chapter anniversary memorials, primarch days, candlemass, victory memorials, company-cult celebrations, tributes, honour-campaigns etc, etc, etc...

[ManOfRust]

I guess training to be an Apothecary would be a pretty long process, most experienced marines (certainly by the time they reach power armour) would have some level of battlefield triage ability - certainly enough to use their power armour autosystems to keep them fighting and resolve minor impediments (broken bones, missing fingers, minimise blood/fluid loss or initiate sus-an coma for later retrieval).

Lots of fully developed Astartes abilities are also geared directly towards making them more efficient learners as well as warriors, an eidetic memory makes a mockery of years of study in any science and meme-engineered training allows transfer of hundreds of years of experience. In theory any Marine with full grasp of their abilities could be an Apothecary or Techmarine, expert tank commander, Fleet Admiral or anything else.

That is nowhere near GrimDark enough though.

Hence the fact that possibly Mankinds greatest, smartest and bravest are devoted to the aim of hitting things with chainsaw-swords and shouting about it. Some chapters may throw knuckle-bones to decide which one gets to be Apothecary.

I recall 3rd ed Space Marine codex included aspirants in the Apothecarion, whether these would be detached from their companies or still members of their original squads during this training is not mentioned.

[canberraguy]

We said the same thing. It's just a question of lazy editing or interpretation. Devastator is a type of squad that a brother joins. The ten marines can be referred to collectively as "devastators," but individually the membership doesn't confer a different pay grade or rank that, for example, has to stand up when an assault squad member enters the room. They join devastator squads in the devastator company first because it's an easy job, not because it's lower on a totem pole. Members of battle companies probably have to fill in in other types of squad all the time.

What is inaccurate is saying that tactical marines become veterans. Veterans, after all, form multiple types of squad: terminator squads and tactical squads, or sternguard/vanguard if you prefer. They are promoted from battle brothers and brother sergeants of multiple squad types. Similarly, there is no reason to say that an initiated marine "sticks to a path" when they can complete a rotation through the companies and be recruited by the eighth or tenth company captain who is looking for some experienced personnel. Certainly, most tenth company sergeants earn their iron skull somewhere else.

Marines are initiates before they become apothecaries, which might be demonstrated by the Blood Angels' junior apothecary. What can you mean by "initiate?" The uninitiated scouts might be novices, postulants, probitors or even neophytes, as in the Temlars' crusader squads. That's the primary use of the term initiate, and appropriately, it refers only to marines who are fully initiated.

The main use of a military body like a chapter is to put bodies in an area and point guns at things. Since brother-sergeants and captains carry mostly side arms, they are accessories to that purpose. Instead of being marines+, they effectively have support or infrastructure jobs. This is the right comparison for apothecaries. Companies need 10-15 sergeants to work effectively, so some marines are diverted away from their primary job of bolter-pointing to fill those spots. A chapter need maybe 20 apothecaries, so they skim off some of the battle brothers to work in the apothecarion.

Chapters need something to do with their postulants who turn out to be psykers. They might just kill them, but they still need some structure for identifying which ones are psychic, and it makes it harder for the occasional marine whose powers emerge later in life. Psyker-neophytes have to be marked out because psykers are dangerous. Other jobs, which select for skills instead of quirks of biology, might not use any formalized apprenticeship with marines until they have accrued a record. Apprentice chaplains, eg, were at one time only eligible if they had earned a "devout" badge. Of course, the same is true for the iron halos, et al, of squad leaders, sergeants, and captains: marines earn the appropriate honor marking, and then when a specialty needs new members, they select from the laureates. Of course, they will have been exposed to the specialties during afternoon firing rites, as explained in the various daily schedules in white dwarfs and codexes.

So you are just speculating. I don't see a lot of references to sources, just assumptions made by yourself.

[baphomael]

My assumption would be that Apothacarion duty is something that just kinda happens. All marines would probably receive some kind of training in triage, first aid and battlefield medicine. The Apothacarion probably approaches those who show a particular aptitude and say "hey, your pretty good at this medical malarkey, we want to offer you the chance to learn more about that and potentially take on one of the most sacred and valued roles we have in the chapter. Do you want to play a part in securing the future of our chapter?"

[endless]

All marines pick up a certain amount of medical knowledge during the course of their initiation into the Chapter, but only those who show an aptitude for such knowledge are chosen to study the sacred rites with the Chapter's surgeons. It must be stressed that Field Medics are primarily soldiers whose duties have been expanded to include the practise of medicine, rather than specialist surgeons who have been given military training. Such individuals are first and foremost warriors, and greatly honoured ones at that. Only champions and heroes are ever initiated into the ways of the Apothacarion - such is the importance of the duties.

40k Compendium, pg 27.
Well, tkohlmetz, the original background supports yr hunch. Hope it helps.