Why I don't find writing lists fun...

[Kakapo42]

Don't worry too much about others criticizing your army choices, it's your army, you can put what you want in it. My Tau force for example has a Skyray, a full team of Stealthsuits (two with fusion blasters), a full squadron of gun-drones, only one Crisis team and only 12-strong Firewarrior teams for troops. According to popular internet opinion, I'd have to be insane to field a force like that, but I field it anyway, because I like the look of an all-Tau army and think the idea of Stealthsuits is awesome (I mean come on, they turn invisible!). Do I care that it is 'unoptimised' or that it won't to well in 'the current meta'? Not one iota. At the end of the day, it's your army, you're in charge of what goes in it.

[a1elbow]

If you take things for fluff, make sure you let people know before you debate a list would be my advice if you don't like being told that unit is garbage. Some of the worst arguments online are someone posting a list with poor pieces they included for fluff reasons, but only stating that afterwards. If people know you are taking a sub-optimal unit and are critcizing you for it, their are just jerks. Including things you want for personal reasons is fine, but be up front about it and usually the strictly-competitive list builders will respect that decision.

fixed it for you
sadly not every codex in interanly and externaly ballanced- while gray knight according to the wed are internaly ballance- there going to destoy most other things (maybe sept guard parking lot)

dark eldar on the other hand are both interaly and external ballanced, pritty much every uni in the book save mandrakes and the madrake leader are usefull, and competattivly priced and able to give most non power build armys a run for there money

I would disagree. DE are terribly balanced both externally and internally. Some armies they eat up, other armies they get owned by. Mostly, any army that brings a lot of AV11 or 36-inch or better weaponry completely negate the premium DE pay for their speed. I really liked the DE codex when it came out, but subsequent releases have hurt the book with inbuilt resistance to shaken/stunned and mass S6/7 shooting.

[Rated_lexxx]

Despite what the internet says, we need more codices like Grey Knights, it's one of the few armies where I can look through everything and have an absolute blast theorizing possible tactics and combinations, and most of them will actually work. When everything is "broken", nothing is.

Isn't this how the cold war started?

[Kakapo42]

Isn't this how the cold war started?

It was also a leading factor in starting the First World War.

[Emerett]

If you take things for fluff, make sure you let people know before you debate a list would be my advice if you don't like being told that unit is garbage. Some of the worst arguments online are someone posting a list with poor pieces they included for fluff reasons, but only stating that afterwards. If people know you are taking a sub-optimal unit and are critcizing you for it, their are just jerks. Including things you want for personal reasons is fine, but be up front about it and usually the strictly-competitive list builders will respect that decision.



I would disagree. DE are terribly balanced both externally and internally. Some armies they eat up, other armies they get owned by. Mostly, any army that brings a lot of AV11 or 36-inch or better weaponry completely negate the premium DE pay for their speed. I really liked the DE codex when it came out, but subsequent releases have hurt the book with inbuilt resistance to shaken/stunned and mass S6/7 shooting.

Meh, venom spam is still pretty amazing.

They really negated the huge loss of a raider blowing up.

[Born Again]

I've always enjoyed list building, as a fluffy player, I enjoy making lists (some of which will never be played in an actually game, just as an exercise) based around different parts of the fluff, for example lists based on each ork klan. Here's a few thoughts of mine:

For instance I love Killa kans, both the models and fluff. However the models cost a lot to buy, occupy a heavy support slot AND are (arguably) less effective than a battlewagon with a deff rolla. Killa kans also work best with a Big Mek+Kustom force field, which gobbles up (at least) one HQ choice, but I really like the thought of a Warboss and a Big Mek with a shokk attack gun. So what do I do? Go with what I ‘like the thought of’ or what will synergise most?

This has always seemed like an odd thing to me. Sure, synergy in a list is important and has a it's part to play, but comparing a battlewagon to killa kans seems really odd to me. There are mathhammer guys and number crunchers out there who will work it all out and tell you which is better, but when I look at two units where one is a tank with a transport capacity, front armour 14, and can mount an ordnance weapon, and the other is a squadron of walkers with dreadnought CCWs and access to kustom mega blasters, big shootas or grotzookas (2 blasts each!) as you see fit, it's apples and oranges. You can't really compare the two. Sure, at the end of the day they're still competing for a slot but that's where choice plays a part for all. Remember that unless you specifically want a killkannon on your battlewagon, you can always sneak one in as a transport for your Nobz while you take the Kanz as HS.

2. DISAPOINTMENT: That feeling you get when a list you thought would be really fun/kick ass/evenly matched against army ‘x’ (delete as appropriate), just isn’t. The tankbusta’s really are rubbish compared to lootas’, those nobz you gave heavy armour got smashed by Grey Knights and you regret the lack of cybork armour and in retrospect that massive unit of meganobz on foot are WAY too slow. Although this feeling is generally short lived and the right ‘wow that list was hilariously bad’ attitude/tweaking to your list can remedy it, for me at least, disappointment is still an issue.

This sucks, flat out. However, in my experience and despite what the internet will tell you, nothing in 40k is useless. Everything has some role to play. Some are easier to use than others, sure, yet people still play Tau and Eldar when there are Marines... if everything was point and click, it'd get pretty boring. The point is, try changing your tactics with said unit rather than dumping them entirely. Maybe you can still use the unit, but their wargear and options could do with some jiggling? Finally, and this is no fault of your own, sometimes it's just a case that there's not much you can do if all your regular opponents only play the latest "unbeatable" list and have more beard than an elderly dwarf. In those situations you can either plan, practice, and beat them on your own terms, or find yourself new opponents.

3. Finally, JUDGEMENT: This is what generally gets to me the most. I know I shouldn’t care what people think, but the ‘what kind of idiot would include unit ‘x’ in a ‘y’ list?!’ really gets to me. I’m not sure if this results from a self imposed urge to prove myself as a capable gamer, or if it’s a widespread feeling, but either way it bugs me. If I want to have 20 gretchin and fork out for 2 Runtherders, I want to do that for a reason (probably one associated with modelling opportunity or fluff). I certainly don’t want people thinking I’m stupid for not taking 19 and saving myself the cost of the extra herder. When I played Space wolves regularly, I would run 2 rune priests only one with living lightning. This wasn’t because I was unaware that living lightning was awesome, but rather I preferred a bit of variety. If I lose a game I have no problem admitting my list might not have helped but I’d don’t want people assuming because I took that list I can’t play 40k and THAT’s why I lost. Judgement narks me.

This really gets to me. My most prominent story of this, which I'm sure I've shared on Warseer before, was when I went down my LGS with my Goff Ork army. Some guy who I'd met all of 5 minutes ago asked me why I had a Deff Dread instead of Killa Kanz, when everybody knew that kanz were better. I said "It's a Goff army, and I thought a Deff Dread would be fluffier," to which he responded with a blank stare of absolute, genuine confusion, before responding with "but kanz are better. Why didn't you take them?" I then carefully explained how Kanz are piloted by gretchin, but I didn't think it was in a Goff ork's nature to let a weedy little grot get all the fun of piloting a big stompy thing like that, it seemed to me they'd take it for themselves and turn it in to a Deff Dread. At this point he continued to stare at me blankly, and it began to dawn on me that it may be entirely possible that he had absolutely no knowledge of the background whatsoever, and had never heard of the concept of a fluffy or themed list.

The worst is when you get some kid who hasn't been alive as long as you've been playing the game, who offers to teach you "how to play better" based on your list selections. Personally, I like to win on the tabletop, not while using Army Builder.

Judgement gets to me too. It's annoying, but when you realize that the people who judge are clearly playing a different game to you, you can ignore it better. You also start to consider what I said earlier about either beating them (the look on their face is priceless when your "useless" unit suddenly finds itself very useful in destroying their forces) or just finding other players.

[Black_Cat]

It's nice to hear other people's opinions on this, and it's good to know others identify with some of my issues with list writing.

Just for some context, I'm not new to the hobby and I play a variety of war games (40k, Epic, Fantasy, Malifaux). I even used to be a Magic player, so I guess I should enjoy writing lists! I think my problems are applified by inner gaming conflict: fluff gamer vs competative player, and also the range of people I play against. I guess I should just embrace different mind sets and 'gaming occasions' and write loads of different lists, with a list for each niche. Or (more likely) buy and paint models I love the look of/story behind, and then build a list using them, and embrace being a fluff player and the challenge/funny looks

Thanks for all the advice, it was really interesting reading peoples view points. And I hope your list writing enthusiasm will have penetrated my subconscious! I especially enjoyed Born agains reply, and the Deff-dread-gormless-stares story

[GrogDaTyrant]

I then carefully explained how Kanz are piloted by gretchin, but I didn't think it was in a Goff ork's nature to let a weedy little grot get all the fun of piloting a big stompy thing like that, it seemed to me they'd take it for themselves and turn it in to a Deff Dread.

I find that idea interesting, mostly because it's the recent codex that officialized Kanz being piloted by Gretchin. Prior to that, Kanz were just smaller dreads. Really though I think the concept of saying "Goffs would prefer Dreads > Kans" is ignoring the blatant fluff bit that Goffs would ultimately just care that it's a big stompy walker and killing the hell out of *those* guys over there. In my viewpoint, a much more accurate depiction of Goffs is to run a handful of walkers in the form of a mixture of both Kanz and Dreads. And to simultaneously eschew any/all looted equipment, because "dat juss ayn' proppa".


In any case, I find list-building with the current Ork codex painfully simplistic. Much more than it really should be. The current codex practically writes itself without your involvement. All you do is decide the overall theme (Bike, half-**** Speed Kult, Battlewagon-spam, Nob-spam, Dread-Bash, Shoota-horde, etc.), then grab everything based upon prerequisites for each unit (i.e. Footslogging unit of Boyz = 20+ with PK/Bosspole Nob and weapon upgrades if you desire). Making sure you have 3 or more scoring troops in 750pts, and 4 or more in anything over, is the primary concern.

[S_A_T_S]

Why not build a list from the top down instead of the bottom up? Instead of putting together units and seeing how the list turns out, and worrying about what people think of your choices on a gaming basis, why not pick a theme or fluff idea and build the list from there?

This is how I write pretty much every list (the pretty much being that I do have a BA list that started as dread list, then I cut the dreads for things that worked and it's now my most competitive/go-to list for PUGs). All my lists have a name/theme, like Descent of Angels, BA Dread Spam, Armoured Fist Chaos (which is mostly mechanized berzerkers + plagues, with winged prince and squad of raptors, but backed up by 2 oblits, defiler and 2 10 man CSM squads), 4Gods Daemons (one of each troops choice, no more than 1 of each god's herald), Wolfy Wolves (for the wife - Space wolves with as many animals as I could cram in without making it completely crap). Most I make for fun, like the Souldrinkers Droppod list (Space Wolves, led by Librarians, every squad in a droppod, other characters from book represented by wolf guard squad leaders), Kroot list using only Forgeworld and Tau Empire book, Kroot using Dark Eldar list.

I think at least part of this comes from playing MTG, as well as loving the 40k background. In MTG, every deck I play (every deck anyone plays?) is themed to some extent (Ninjas, White Weenie, Werewolves, RDW), as it helps you to pick what is good and what works together from such a huge card pool.

[Marshal]

See, the reasons why you listed I find as reasons for writing more lists. I own just about every codex released, and write lists periodically from various codecies, even though I have no intention of playing them. I've never owned a Dark Angels army, but will write lists for them, same with Orks, or what have you. Why? Because I enjoy seeing the different combinations that people can come up with, I enjoy writing up what would appear to be the stupidest army lists just to see what all you can fit into them. If they intrigue me enough, I just might build the list (I did that with an all jump pack Blood Angels army...just gotta see how she performs on the field).

As for people criticizing you, who cares. If you enjoy a unit for whatever reason, you enjoy it and whoever says otherwise can stuff it. I field a full 10 man scourge squad in my Dark Eldar. Is this unit great? Not really. Is it a hell of a lot of points? You damn straight. How often does it make it's points back? Hardly ever. Will I continue to field this unit? Hell yeah I will. Why? Because I enjoy it. People look at the unit all the time and say things like "for those points, you could have gotten another wych unit on the board." or whatever unit at the time, and yes I could, but my scourges make me smile inside.

[Dr.Clock]

@John Keel: EXACTLY... this is what I do when starting out.

However, I often preface all of it with a theme, and make choices based on how I envision the theme working on the table. My DE are themed around a symbiotic relationship with a particular type of Old-one creation gone crazy mental in the furthest secluded reaches of the webway. Center-piece unit: my beast-masters with shoggoth-like masses of tentacles and their 'offspring', strange little lizard-things (razorwings and Khymerae).

In sum, you need to find the heart of the army... for YOU. The one or two units that really make the army tick as far as you're concerned. I have a feeling that it would be kans for you.

I tend, in general, to pay little to no attention to conventional wisdom about units' worth. The thing that will ultimately convince me to take or not take a unit is the the idea behind it.

Finally, I tend to avoid, whenever possible, taking more than 2 identical units in a list. Overspecialize and you breed in weakness (+1 internet for citing reference). This keeps thing fun and interesting while still ensuring a measure of redundancy (you should usually be doubling up on at least one or two strong units in order to make sure that one of them gets the job done).

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

[Born Again]

I find that idea interesting, mostly because it's the recent codex that officialized Kanz being piloted by Gretchin. Prior to that, Kanz were just smaller dreads. Really though I think the concept of saying "Goffs would prefer Dreads > Kans" is ignoring the blatant fluff bit that Goffs would ultimately just care that it's a big stompy walker and killing the hell out of *those* guys over there. In my viewpoint, a much more accurate depiction of Goffs is to run a handful of walkers in the form of a mixture of both Kanz and Dreads. And to simultaneously eschew any/all looted equipment, because "dat juss ayn' proppa".

Of course, there are always personal interpretations of fluff and that's a perfectly valid way of looking at it too. Both ways could work, however even if I did include Kanz I'd probably still convert them to have Orks rather than gretchin packed like green sardines in to the cockpits