The Light of the Astronomican - How strong?

[aim]

Also, the intereference within the warp to the beacon is considerable - possibly a lot more than what we might expect in Realspace in the voids between galaxies. Sometimes massive Warpstorms can block out the Astronomican even within its usually comfortable range, so over such vast distances it's impossible to tell what sorts of distortions and other ructions might be diffusing its signal.

It also would depend on how it worked. If you imagine it as a lighthouse where you literally just move towards / away from the light depending on where you want to be, then I cant see it attracting the nids on an extra-galaxy scale.

If however, its more akin to a camp lantern in the middle of a field full of holes. Within a certain radius, the lantern would allow you to navigate around the holes, however, once outside that radius, it stops illuminating the holes and thus you cant use it to navigate around them anymore. You can however still see said lantern from a very very long way outside of its 'useful' radius. If you get what I mean.

[Lothlanathorian]

Also, the interference within the warp to the beacon is considerable - possibly a lot more than what we might expect in Realspace in the voids between galaxies. Sometimes massive Warpstorms can block out the Astronomican even within its usually comfortable range, so over such vast distances it's impossible to tell what sorts of distortions and other ructions might be diffusing its signal.

The Warp between galaxies has been mentioned before as being calmer and the Tyranids themselves have even made mention of how the Warp in our galaxy is some much different than their previous experiences with it.

[The bearded one]

While calmer, it also meant warptravel was really slow, making the jump between galaxies even longer than it would be if the warp was as it is inside the galaxy.

[El_Machinae]

The Warp between galaxies has been mentioned before as being calmer and the Tyranids themselves have even made mention of how the Warp in our galaxy is some much different than their previous experiences with it.

Where is that discussed?

[Idaan]

The fact that being drawn towards the Astronomican is only mentioned in Hive Fleet Leviathan's entry indicates, logically, that it doesn't apply to other Hive Fleets. Otherwise it would be noted in a general piece of background. Furthermore, if only one Hive Fleet is drawn towards it, it means that either a) Leviathan's behaviour is anomalous, or b) Leviathan is the only one to notice it. Since we have no clues that a) is true, we must assume b), which means that it had to be noticed from inside the galaxy. Agree?

[Lothlanathorian]

Where is that discussed?

I think it was the 2nd Edition Tyranid Codex where this was mentioned. Something comparing daemons to scum on the surface of a pond. Also, we know (as fact) that it is emotion/psychic species that cause turmoil in the Warp, so, it's a safe bet that the unpopulated spaces between galaxies would be...without turmoil since, you know, nothing lives there.

[Bunnahabhain]

My impression of it is rather like a lighthouse.

i) They both have a finite range. A more powerful beacon ( taller and more powerful lighthouse) can be seen for further.
ii) Fixed obstructions ( hills, the eye of terror) stop the signal
iii) The weather ( warp currents) can stop your seeing it by blocking it out.
iv) Other signals (Lights, the moon, hive fleets) can stop you making it out.

[Lord Damocles]

I think it was the 2nd Edition Tyranid Codex where this was mentioned. Something comparing daemons to scum on the surface of a pond.

I think you're thinking of Ian Watson's Space Marine.

Lifted from an old post of Iracundus':

'“The Masters tell us that the Great Mind senses that there are… savage entities… within the warp which this galaxy floats upon, as glittering scum on a black lake-”
"Tzeentch…” muttered Biff.
Yeri darted a look of utter warning at his brother. With power-glove, Yeri mimicked the scribing of anathema upon bones…
“Chaos…” Biff made a hex sign.
Yeri looked on the point of leaping to muzzle Biff, lest Lex’s bones be put in peril.
“Yes, Chaos,” sang the centaur. “Thanks be to the Great Mind that Guides, the Masters are immune to corruption!”
“Your galaxy is crumbling under this corruption,” it hissed. “Our ships shall take your flesh,extract your genes, and forge instruments that will wash your worlds clean of…” It stared at Biff, eyes glittering, “…of the taint of Tzeentch. And… of other taints,” it added. “Do you fear the torments of this Tzeentch?”
Oh, it had picked up on the name Biff murmured.'

Space Marine , pg.114

[Lothlanathorian]

That is it, sir. I don't know if I have that book or access to it. Will have to go through the shelve.

[Gaargod]

Try not to think of it in scientific terms. From memory, light intensity:distance has an inverse-square relationship. In other words, if you double the distance, you divide the intensity for the same area by 4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law

In other words, the light intensity at the far edges of space would be astronomically (ha) small compared to near the rim. Far, far more than the fluff suggests. Of course, 'chaos did it'.

[The Warmaster]

You said it yourself - it barely reaches the Eastern Fringe (which isn't the edge of the galaxy) - so there's no reason to believe that it somehow reaches to another galaxy entirely.

The new Night Lord book says that there are areas of the Eastern Fringe that are weeks away from the Astronomican (e.g. Tsagualsa), which usually require conventional FTL drives to reach. It's possible to use warp travel beyond its reach, apparently, but it's incredibly dangerous.

[El_Machinae]

I wonder if it depends upon the quality of the psychic-sensitive? A really good telescope allows us to see stars millions of light-years away, but doesn't allow us to see a street lamp through a dense fog

[TheDungen]

Actually there are incidents when the light of the astronomicon have been outshined, the istavaan IV incident. the death cry of of an enitire planet million diying at the same time, its described in the old fluff atleast as "Outshining even the light of the astronomican". So if there were enough psykers sacreficed in Ultramar for an example then a second astronomicna could possibly be set up. Not sure how it'd work without the empreror to guide it, and i'm not sure how the tyranid swarm would react to such a strong psychic beacon in their area of space. (isnt there some old fluff stating that the hive mind might be drawn toward the astronomican?)

[El_Machinae]

I see a grand Inquisitorial project, if it turns out to be true! (ouch!)

[TheDungen]

Its the imperium of man if it was simply a matter of killing people they'd have doen it already. the millions of lives lost would be of little importance to them compared to the benefits of having a lighthouse in the eastern fringe.

[MvS]

Its the imperium of man if it was simply a matter of killing people they'd have doen it already. the millions of lives lost would be of little importance to them compared to the benefits of having a lighthouse in the eastern fringe.

I think it's the sheer quantity and the nature of the deaths that would prevent this. If it takes the sudden and simultaneous death of countless billions of people to match the Astronomican even for a moment, it simply wouldn't be feasible to do this constantly. The Imperium would wipe out the entire populations of whole subsectors in a matter of months if they tried to keep a constant 'beam'. Not to mention that they would have to first transport all these billions/trillions of souls to the same location in order to execute them, or else the Warp echo of their deaths would jump all over the Eastern Fringe depending on where the killing was being done that day.

There are also the entities of Chaos to consider. Killing billions of humans every day just to create a Warp lighthouse would attract all manner of daemons and spirits to feast on the mortal terror, despair and suffering, not to mention the souls themselves. I mean without the Emperor (or whatever arcane machinery) focusing the fleeing souls of all those executed people, there wouldn't be a 'beam' in the Warp so much as a sudden bright 'explosion', which wouldn't be much use for navigation.

EDIT

On a side note, I've always regarded the 'Light of the Astronomican' as not being literal. Or rather, the Warp senses and brains of Navigators and other psykers may interpret the Astronomican as being a 'light' in the broiling 'darkness' of the Warp, but it may not be the 'literal' truth. I tend to like the idea that the appearance of the Warp isn't at all fixed - it's the observer who gives it identifiable shapes, patterns, colours, sounds, etc. The Warp can appear as absolutely anything and absolutely nothing, and absolutely anything in between. So for me the Astronomican is more a point of absolute and unchanging certainty within the Warp's absolute and ever-changing uncertainty.

It fixes a definite and constant link between the space-time continuum of Realspace and the madness of the Warp. So it actually anchors one exact spacial point (Terra) and the exact same chronological time-frame that Terra exists is within, to one exact physical and chronological point in the Warp (as far as this is possible).

So by this measure, wherever you are in the Warp, if you can detect the Astronomican you can, to a degree, keep your ship within the general ballpark of the linear time and dimension of Realspace but with a few spacial fluctuations that makes Warp travel so fast, instead of just hopping at random through time and space. The closer you are to Terra when you translate into the Warp, the more certain and predictable the distances and time are in the Warp around you, precisely because of the imposition of certainty that is the Astronomican.

[Xisor]

On a side note, I've always regarded the 'Light of the Astronomican' as not being literal. Or rather, the Warp senses and brains of Navigators and other psykers may interpret the Astronomican as being a 'light' in the broiling 'darkness' of the Warp, but then I tend to like the idea that the appearance of the Warp isn't at all fixed - it's the observer who gives it identifiable shapes, patterns, colours, sounds, etc. The Warp can appear as absolutely anything and absolutely nothing, and absolutely anything in between. So for me the Astronomican is more a point of absolute and unchanging certainty within the Warp's absolute and ever-changing uncertainty.

Interesting. In my eyes, it's a psychic signal. If you can sense it, however you analogise it, you're still sensing it. If you can sense it, you have a link to the Hollow Mountain on Earth and, by association, the will of the Emperor of Mankind. In a very peculiar sense, I feel it's important to model it as a psychic power deployed by the Emperor. Powered by the choirs, but ultimately 'composed' by the Emperor. Talking of it as a psychic lighthouse, I think, is perhaps something of a misunderstanding on the same (possible) magnitude of 'the Webway is for travel'. It's odd, but I think it contributes something more to the 'other masks' of the Emperor as both the New Man and 'the scientist promoting the Imperial Truth' and all the other ideas we have of him - candidate Old One, pursuit of godhood etc.

I had something I was aiming to get to, but I'm totally sidetracked now by musing on the Emperor. Hmmm....

[Son of Sanguinius]

MvS, what you are describing could manifest with "lighthouse effect" in the eyes of the viewer, couldn't it? I find a beam of unfailing light in a storm of chaotic energy to be a good metaphor for conceptual consistency amid emotions running rampant.

[MvS]

Interesting. In my eyes, it's a psychic signal. If you can sense it, however you analogise it, you're still sensing it. If you can sense it, you have a link to the Hollow Mountain on Earth and, by association, the will of the Emperor of Mankind. In a very peculiar sense, I feel it's important to model it as a psychic power deployed by the Emperor. Powered by the choirs, but ultimately 'composed' by the Emperor. Talking of it as a psychic lighthouse, I think, is perhaps something of a misunderstanding on the same (possible) magnitude of 'the Webway is for travel'. It's odd, but I think it contributes something more to the 'other masks' of the Emperor as both the New Man and 'the scientist promoting the Imperial Truth' and all the other ideas we have of him - candidate Old One, pursuit of godhood etc.

I agree with everything you say here.

I love the added nuance you teased out about the Astronomican also being, essentially, a manifestation of the Emperor's Will and a blazing embodiment of his intention. It gives a symbolic-yet-tangible-yet-symbolic loop to the Astronomican, which is (I think) what psychic powers and the Warp are all about. Ideas have physical presence. Symbolism is demonstrable fact. Abstracts are certainties.

In an important sense, this would be the only way to link Realspace and the Warp - the bridge between them would have to be both a measurable force and a heavily-coded symbol.

MvS, what you are describing could manifest with "lighthouse effect" in the eyes of the viewer, couldn't it? I find a beam of unfailing light in a storm of chaotic energy to be a good metaphor for conceptual consistency amid emotions running rampant.

Absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest a negation of the idea that this is how the Astronomican appears to the Warpsight of Navigators and any other psychic. I was trying to make the point that what the the Astronomican is and does in 'real' terms (let's say providing an absolute point of dimensional and temporal certainty in the infinite uncertainty and insanity of the Warp) isn't the same as how it may appear and how it is sensed/perceived by those mortals who are able to do so.

Also, as suggested in my response to Xisor, the very idea and symbolism of 'The Emperor's Light' searing away the 'Dark Taint of Chaos', even if not factually true in one sense is at the same time absolutely true in another, because symbols become real and hold power in the Warp, just as personal perception can actually shape it.

I tend to view the Warp in a similar way to how Neil Gaimen manages ideas like the dawn of the universe or the birth of the Earth in his Sandman series. He always refers to the reality-forming power of 'points of view'. So from one point of view the only factual way to see the early Earth was as a cooling lump of rock, blindly doing all the things we know it did, but from the another point of view the only factual way to see the early Earth was a frightening place of terrible magic and a home to daemons and supernatural creatures of darkness. Or on the one hand Heaven only existing in the minds of mortals means that it is not 'real' and has no power, while on the other hand Heaven existing in the minds of mortals means that it the only important reality with absolute power over everything.

That's sort of how I see interactions with the Warp in GW imagery. On the one hand its just a sort of hyperspace 'other dimension' composed of some sort of exotic energy and that's all it ever was and ever will be in objective factual terms, with everything else just being superstitious nonsense of the ignorant and superstitious. On the other hand the Warp is Infinite Chaos, Hell, Heaven, God, Satan, the Great Muse, the Ultimate Nightmare, the Sea of Souls, the Collective Subconscious, the Dreamscape and the Afterlife of every mortal thing that ever lived and that will ever live, and that is everything it ever has been and everything it will ever be be for all eternity in objective and factual terms.

I see the Emperor as trying to make the former the only possible perception (and so the only objective reality), while the entities of Chaos seek to make the latter the only possible perception (and so the only objective reality).

Sort of. There's a bit more to it than that though.

[El_Machinae]

If experiencing the Warp can sometimes become allegories in the mind of the viewer (i.e., a rocky beach or an ocean or a network of caves), the beacon of the Astronomican could be a consistent metaphor in the interpretation of the traveler. i.e., it could be the 'Sun' if the experience is an open field or it could be a lit tunnel if the experiencer is perceiving the warp as being underground.