Daemons of Chaos - Still breaking the game?

[Damien 1427]

For what it's worth, Fantasy was never my main game, but I find myself drawn to it these days. Whilst Daemons breaking the entire game in 7th Edition is pretty widely known, I'm curious if they're still that bad in 8th. I'm interested in dusting off my old Lord of Change and collecting a pure Tzeentch Daemon army, but I'm also terribly keen on not being assaulted.

So, will I end up in A&E for taking a Daemon army these days, or are they toned down?

[Novrain]

Whilst Daemons breaking the entire game in 7th Edition is pretty widely known,

It wasn't just Daemons. Try the combination of Dark Elves, Daemons and Vampire Counts breaking the entire game...

Daemons in eighth are nothing like as powerful as they were in 7th. The addition of steadfast, step-up and the removal of fear auto-break all significantly hurt daemons.

[Huoshini]

For what it's worth, Fantasy was never my main game, but I find myself drawn to it these days. Whilst Daemons breaking the entire game in 7th Edition is pretty widely known, I'm curious if they're still that bad in 8th. I'm interested in dusting off my old Lord of Change and collecting a pure Tzeentch Daemon army, but I'm also terribly keen on not being assaulted.

So, will I end up in A&E for taking a Daemon army these days, or are they toned down?

They are pretty toned down with 8th ed preventing from fear auto-breaking units now. Although I belive they are still strong, they are not overpowered. On a side note: All of the new army books give me hope for a somewhat balanced game

[ArtificerArmour]

Daemons are fine. Theres older books who can still put out the hurt much more than daemons.

[DaemonReign]

I think Daemons are fine in 8th. I hear from tourney-players that I trust they're not even in the 'top 3' anymore.
Still strong though (and they damn well ought to be..) and personally I've had a lot more success with them in 8th compared to 7th - simply because the Core mechanics of 8th mixes better with how I like my lists to look (fielding Hordes in 7th wasn't exactly 'good').
I suspect/hope once their book gets redone we'll get some more variety, better internal balance, and some 'trimming around the edges' for the little things that are problematic (Master of Sorcery too cheap, Despair Icon too potent, the Masque too synergistic - little things like that which look small on paper but really account for much of the actual 'whining' if you scratch the surface of things).

All praise 8th Edition!!

[Damien 1427]

Ah, groovy. I was going to run with them because I've always liked Tzeentch, and I've a rather nice colour-scheme in mind (Black and white, green eyes, tongues and flames. Idea for the Horrors is to have ones with white flesh, black claws/teeth/beaks/feathers and then have the ones next to them to be black flesh with white claws/teeth/beaks/feathers) and I didn't want people thinking I'm in it solely because I can't stand losing.

On a side note: All of the new army books give me hope for a somewhat balanced game

It does seem the game is stepping closer towards something that may be considered balance.

[DaemonReign]

@ Demien1427:
Don't concern yourself so much with what people might think.
I think there'll be a lot of 'residual whining' about Daemons for a long time to come still, the way that decease has been roted in the minds of players.. Never underestimate the herd-instinct and people's unwillingness to change their minds about something.
That idea you have for a Tzeentch Army sounds cool. Just go for it dude!

The new AB's for 8th have been rather good. But it's the CORE MECHANICS that is the big difference. If TK and Ogres had been released "next to each other" back in 7th we'd have had nerd-raging in galactic proportions over how 'un-equal' they are.
So don't put the cart before the horse: The New Army Books are pretty much great, but it's the environment they're inserted into that's KEY.

[Gop]

Fateweaver and friends can be quite competitive, but most of the other builds are not what they used to be. Mono Khorne once ruled, but alas isn't as good in 8th. Most other builds just aren't up to scratch when facing the top builds of Skaven, Dark Elves etc.

[Sexiest_hero]

They have a few combos that can hurt people unaware like Bloodletter horde and Life magic, but gone are the days of Rage quitting fantasy in anger

[vcassano]

They are still strong on a fundamental level (Well pointed core, strong stats, ward saves) but they aren't really exploitative, unless you get ridiculous by loading up on many hordes of bloodletters and flamers.

[ArtificerArmour]

They rely on the synegies granted by heralds. take out the herald, neuter the blocks. Not many other armies fold so easily.

[Jerry]

Blast all of you daemon sympathisers they are so damn broken people run around with lists of 100+ bloodletters, they're freeking unbreakable core with KB and S5 with a 5+ ward. You can kill the herald but you will never do enough wounds it's just massive points denial. Then they have the +6 to cast loremaster of life rolling you for everything you have and then some - regrowing all of those nasty bloodletters you tried to kill.
Top that off with flamers dear oh dear march and shoot BS4 D6 S4 and BS shooting isn't even that great these things are horrendous and hard to kill. You can't even get your light units into combat because they're S5 with multiple attacks.
Cancon 2012 (Australia's largest over 76 players this year),Leviathon 2012, Emperors Legion 2012, Clash of the titans 2012, Dogcon 2012 - All had either Daemons, Dark Elves, Ogres, Skaven or High Elves in the top 3. Here's the proof to all you "Daemons aren't in the top tier anymore"
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...owtopic=135234 Daemons placed 3rd
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...owtopic=131267 Daemons placed 3rd
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...=130135&st=100 Daemons placed 2nd
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...owtopic=132183 Daemons placed 4th
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...=126694&st=200 Daemons placed 1st

It's obviously a coincidence that even though not many people play Daemons they are somehow always in the top ranks... Same goes with Dark Elves, Ogres, Skaven and High Elves if you run through all the links.
Link me some tournaments where wood elves, bretonnians, tomb kings and empire have come in the top ranks and tell me daemons aren't overpowered. Also punch me in the face because I'm frothing in rage at all the talk about daemons not being overpowered.
P.S Written my Matt Ward. Ask some 40k players if Blood Angels and Grey Knights aren't top tier books/over powered.

[Morkash]

I'd not put it as harsh as Jerry did, but Daemons are indeed still a strong army. Their Lords are good, as are their Core units...or, well, Bloodletters at least (and Plaguebearers imo...I like the rotting cyclops ), and Flamers are as evil as ever. Heralds of Tzeentch with Loremaster are great and their selection of gifts is quite fine. Bloodletter hordes with Heralds are as scary as it can be and units of Fiends of Slaanesh are impossibly fast and deal alot of damage.

I never played against unrestricted Daemons in 8th, so my opinion may be biased, but in 1 tournament I attended they came in 3rd, in another they scored in 1st and 2nd, while they weren't good in the other one. Then again they were more restricted than Germany was 1945, so that isn't very surprising.

[Novrain]

Blast all of you daemon sympathisers they are so damn broken people run around with lists of 100+ bloodletters, they're freeking unbreakable core with KB and S5 with a 5+ ward. You can kill the herald but you will never do enough wounds it's just massive points denial. Then they have the +6 to cast loremaster of life rolling you for everything you have and then some - regrowing all of those nasty bloodletters you tried to kill.
Top that off with flamers dear oh dear march and shoot BS4 D6 S4 and BS shooting isn't even that great these things are horrendous and hard to kill. You can't even get your light units into combat because they're S5 with multiple attacks.
Cancon 2012 (Australia's largest over 76 players this year),Leviathon 2012, Emperors Legion 2012, Clash of the titans 2012, Dogcon 2012 - All had either Daemons, Dark Elves, Ogres, Skaven or High Elves in the top 3. Here's the proof to all you "Daemons aren't in the top tier anymore"
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...owtopic=135234 Daemons placed 3rd
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...owtopic=131267 Daemons placed 3rd
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...=130135&st=100 Daemons placed 2nd
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...owtopic=132183 Daemons placed 4th
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/inde...=126694&st=200 Daemons placed 1st

It's obviously a coincidence that even though not many people play Daemons they are somehow always in the top ranks... Same goes with Dark Elves, Ogres, Skaven and High Elves if you run through all the links.
Link me some tournaments where wood elves, bretonnians, tomb kings and empire have come in the top ranks and tell me daemons aren't overpowered. Also punch me in the face because I'm frothing in rage at all the talk about daemons not being overpowered.
P.S Written my Matt Ward. Ask some 40k players if Blood Angels and Grey Knights aren't top tier books/over powered.

Good lord, I am surprised you can still walk with the weight of that chip on your shoulder!

You mention things that are supposedly broken about Daemons, yet most of them other armies can do too. KB with high strength, 5+ Ward - Dark Elves, +6 to cast on life lore - Bretonnians... Are they "broken" too?

You list 5 tounaments, from a very particular meta, only one of which Daemons actually one - hardly OMG broken! No one in the thread was arguing that Daemons were no longer a powerful army, but that they were no longer as over-powered as they were in 7th. Something which is borne out by the very tournament results you provided!

You then whinge and whine about a particular selection of armies not winning tournaments - a selection that includes a host of very old and very weak books - before comfirming what seems obvious. It is you that has a problem with daemons, probably because you play two elderly books, and no-one else.

It is this exact, out-dated, attitude that puts people off starting Daemons. I hope you are happy for ruining the hobby of those around you.

[Urgat]

You mention things that are supposedly broken about Daemons, yet most of them other armies can do too. KB with high strength, 5+ Ward - Dark Elves, +6 to cast on life lore - Bretonnians... Are they "broken" too?

Playing the devil's advocate here (hahaha), but to be honest, those don't combine all that into one neat unit

[Novrain]

Playing the devil's advocate here (hahaha), but to be honest, those don't combine all that into one neat unit

Strictly speaking, neither do Daemons. Unless someone has figured out how to give Bloodletters +6 to cast the lore of life....

[Dreadlordpaul]

Strictly speaking, neither do Daemons. Unless someone has figured out how to give Bloodletters +6 to cast the lore of life....

If they have found a way to do it please tell me as id love to give it to my chaos warriors

[Wesser]

Daemons are easily one of the nastiest army out there I think. But okay, I've got a lot more trouble with High Elves, whom I think is massively underrated in terms of the hideous things they can do.

All in all, my opinion differs from that of most people.

The biggest problem with daemons is the rather devastating combos they can pull off, especially the number of loremasters and the rather insane LD bomb. Lore of Slaanesh and that nurgle icon (i think) and passing LD tests of any kind suddenly because difficult in the extreme...even steadfast is neutered.

The lesser is the fact that their core troops cost less than most other race's elites while being better. Try comparing a Bloodletter to a Greatsword or a Daemonette to a Witch elf for instance.

Sowhile Daemons aren't broken they have options that are.... as well as some units not quite in tune with costing in 8th. But ofc that goes two ways... not many think mounted daemonettes are worth their points... not when fiends are in the same list.

[shelfunit.]

Strictly speaking, neither do Daemons. Unless someone has figured out how to give Bloodletters +6 to cast the lore of life....

Kairos can do it, at least the lore of life part. Scribes can also cast life, but not at +6, and the universally availible "Master of sorcery" gift - to all thse questioning how Daemons can get life: Have you actualy looked in their book?

If they have found a way to do it please tell me as id love to give it to my chaos warriors

Sadly daemon stuff is only applicable to Daemon armies, not Chaos warriors

[The bearded one]

Kairos can do it, at least the lore of life part. Scribes can also cast life, but not at +6, and the universally availible "Master of sorcery" gift - to all thse questioning how Daemons can get life: Have you actualy looked in their book?

Doesn't a keeper with twin heads get an additional +2 to cast, or am I thinking of the wrong upgrade?

Daemons still make me very, very sad. They easily have the most advantageous breaktest system of the entire game short of unbreakable.