warhammer armies nastiest suprises-what are they

[madival]

I have been playing on and off again for 10 years. The last off time was about 3 years and I was curious about what is the nastiest thing about all the warhammer armies. My experience with each army is limited and I was wondering what to go look. Pretty much, what makes each army formidable and nasty that is deeper than face value like bretonians and tons of cavalry. I play vampire counts and have played Goblin only OnG and some dark elves/high elves, but not much else. Any advice is helpful as I want to go to tournaments soon.

[Gop]

When I went into a GW shop and nearly shat myself when I saw the price of some of the finecast!

[RanaldLoec]

When I went into a GW shop and nearly shat myself when I saw the price of some of the finecast!

Quote of the day, thanks for the laugh.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Unfortunately he's right. When I got into the hobby it was still a fun pocket money game. Regular price rises and now the switch to finecast (some of the Empire characters doubled in price) have moved it into the realm of a serious investment. Unfortunately, despite the comparable price, GW models don't hold their value as well as gold.

[jtrowell]

I'm not sure what it is that you're asking for: do you want to know of the combos/abuses that each armie have ? Or is your question more about the theme/strong points of an army if you ignore those ?

Exemple with dark elves:

Combos and other overpowered things:

- hydra too cheap in this edition (compare to the Storm of Magic one)
- pendant of Kalaeth allowing the "unkillable dreadlord" combo, where one character (usually on a pegasus) is almost unkillable and can hold any unit by himself
- sarificial dagger too powerful in the current magic system
- being able to use more than 6 power dice on the same spells combined with some powerful spells from the shadow lore make for some boring magic phases ("i use my 8 dice on mindrazor ... again")

Global theme and strong/weak points:
- lots of low strength attacks, with good precision
- armie of glass canons (no elf has more than T3, armor saves are usually 5+ or worse exept for a few units (knights, chariots, corsairs against shooting ...)
- good offensive magic (power of darkness, lores selection ...)

[Snake1311]

I think he's asking more about closed-list tricks.

Bretonnians are actually a very good example of tons of dirty tricks (even though if you put them as one of obviousness). Their characters are virtually indistignushable from one another (dude on a horse with a lance), but they have access to a lot of dirty magic items and virtues (heroic killing blow, extra d6 on the charge, 1+ rerollable armour, WS10, a breath weapon etc.)

It is generally unlikely that you will truly surprise a good player though, as most of the worthwhile combinations are used regularly and are expected. I win games with rune of challenge, but I don't think it being there catches anyone off guard - some just forget, or aren't able to counter it anyway.

[T10]

Bretonnians are actually a very good example of tons of dirty tricks (even though if you put them as one of obviousness). Their characters are virtually indistignushable from one another (dude on a horse with a lance), but they have access to a lot of dirty magic items and virtues (heroic killing blow, extra d6 on the charge, 1+ rerollable armour, WS10, a breath weapon etc.)

I agree. Most armies (at least the 6th-7th ed books) have a lot of Gotcha! surprises that they can spring on you if you expose yourself. Bretonnia has more of Wham! surprises that you're going to get served even if you're not making any mistakes.

-T10

[Azazel]

Goblin Fanatics or Van Horstmans Speculum for me and my Daemons.

[Robotlord]

Fanatics, never a surprise (or at least they shouldn't be) but, when they get lucky, its gonna hurt

[Mr Ogre]

Opponents thinking a horde of Ogres shouldn't be too much trouble. Hurr hurr hurr!

[Graxy]

For quite a lot of the 8th edition released armies, they've taken away a fair chunk of the "nasty surprises" by taking away the range of magic items (I will always miss my little exploding goblin :'( May he rest in peace). It is really becoming more of an in your face game IMO.

Really the main threats that I can think of off of the top of my head are mournfang, ironblasters, the entirety of the dark elf and daemon armies, mangler squigs + savage orcs (about the only threatening thing in the army), the skaven rare section (hellpit abominations especially), and ethereal units (probably a lot more but I can't really think of them right now).

I can't really comment on beasts, lizards or wood elves since I don't know the armies to well but there's definately a couple (like slann mage priests).

Hope I helped

[Maoriboy007]

With the new VC often you will be expecting the Fury blender lord but find the Fear Ld Bomb lord instead. Most dirty tricks are fairly telegraphed, although Dark Elf assasins are pretty nasty as they show up where you dont want them to. DE probably have the most dirty tricks available anyway.
A lot of "tricks" come through the spell lores, lower a stat with shadow then hit with an item or spell that works on said stat. Charge a frenzied unit with a sacrificial unit and cast fulminating flame cage. Frenzied unit gets owned when they overrun.
I used to like the empire combat wizard, VHS , Sword of justice and4+ ward save was suprisingly nasty in combat.

[Andy p]

I remember leaning on a table once in an attempt to lean over to get a better look at something....the 70 night goblin spearmen who I put my hands on certainly presented a nasty surprise.

[Gaargod]

Beastmen:

> Slugtongue can hurt a lot at the start of the game if you're playing MSU. But as he's a character and is placed last, and his curse has a 36" range, it's effectively unavoidable.
> Doombulls *hurt*. And are often difficult to kill.
> Herdstone can provide a surprisingly powerful magic phase.
> Beast Banner can turn units into blenders.


Bretonnia

> Lords in particular can have a lot of dangerous combos. Gauntlet of the duel (force accept challenge) is occasionally worrying, and they will usually be running around with 1 or 2+ armour, and the blessing. Rerollable armour save is common too. Heroic Killing Blow is very common.
> Trebuchets are deadly at S5.
> Be aware of combo charges from knight buses. Steadfast won't help you if they've got 4 ranks and you've just taken 10+ casualties.
> Flaming bowmen are common.
> Silver Mirror - dispel scroll that does a S6 hit to the caster. Can easily finish off someone wounded by a miscast.

Chaos Dwarfs

> K'daai Destroyers are death incarnate. Anything that doesn't have S5+ or magical attacks won't be able to hurt it either.
> Artillery hurts. Deathquake mortars in particular are bad, as they make your units take dangerous terrain tests en masse.


Daemons

> Siren song is an abomination
> Bloodthirsters running obsidian armour are functionally invulnerable to anything that isn't artillery, and will grind all the best units to death.
> Fateweaver is a stupid magical combo machine.
> Bloodletter hordes are character assassinating ninjas. And hurt.
> Flamers are still worth every penny. Oh, and most anti-support units will bounce off them.
> Skulltaker annihilates characters.
> Keeper of Secrets is... interesting. Fast and killy.


Dark Elves

> Pendant of Khaleith is really difficult to get around. And it makes Crown of Command lords a pain in the butt.
> Sacrificial dagger makes magic phases silly.
> The ability to cast with more than 6 dice means screw you, my spell is happening.
> Speaking of which, welcome to Cauldron-buffed Witch Elves with mindrazor.
> Shades will eat your war machines.
> Mass repeater crossbows are cheap and effective.
> Hydras are annoying. Hence, flaming!
> Stubborn Black Guard.


Dwarfs

> Artillery is super reliable and dangerous as hell. S4/5 stone throwers, rerollable cannons, any of them might be flaming...
> Stubborn hammerers.
> Lords can be functionally unkillable. Or take your head off. Thankfully, not both.
> Screw your magic phase - I have like +4 dispel dice and 2+ scrolls.
> Anvil will destroy support units. Or let those miners who entered from the back of the board charge immediately. Issues.


Don't know new Empire.


High Elves

> Teclis / Book of Hoeth is a nightmare. Magical combos abound (especially with Standard of Sorcery to provide dice).
> ASF on everything means stuff *hurts*. Especially with the aforementioned magical combos (oh what's that? Wither on your your unit? Take 60 arrows).


Lizardmen

> Slann are stupidly good at magic. Especially with life. And, short of stat tests, functionally unkillable without killing their unit.
> Which won't break. Coldblooded adds about 1.5 to their LD. Hence, LD10 coldblooded stubborn rerollable (Slann with standard of discipline, as he can be BSB).
> Skinks are ninjas versus monsters. Approach with extreme caution
> Chameleons delete war machines in turn 1, happily.
> If they haven't taken a slann (what?!), beware of Crown of Command lords.


Ogre Kingdoms

> Mournfangs are silly killy. And surprisingly tough.
> Slaughtermasters are often near to immortal, with T5 W5, the ability to wear armour and healing magic. Or might slap you with A4 S6 (great weapon).
> Death magic + greedy fist (which is a enormously silly FAQ ruling) will basically instantly strip a wizard of his levels.
> Ironblasters are death. And hard to kill.


Orcs and Goblins

> Savage orc Big 'uns are surprisingly dangerous, at A3 S5 in first round. Especially if they've got a savage orc shaman with Shrunken head giving them 5++.
> Oh god, shoot the mangler squigs, shoot them now! 2D6 S6 AP hits on semi-controllable and speedy fanatics are not funny.
> Arachnarok spiders with Venom Surge can ninja snipe monsters.


Skaven

> Abominations are... well, abominations. Kill it with fire.
> Doomwheels are also silly dangerous, especially to monsters.
> Be aware of war machines, of all types.
> Slaves are extremely cheap roadblocks. Who explode.
> Doomrockets are disturbingly accurate and dangerous.
> Stormbanner is stupid good.


Tomb Kings

> Necorpolis knights are dangerous.
> Entombed Beneath the Sands is occasionally a nasty surprise.
> Sepulchral stalkers can ninja stuff, especially with EBtS.
> Save some dice to dispel casket. Seriously.
> Kill the Hierophant, if possible. Doesn't get you very far, as they tend to have high LD, but better than nothing.


Vampire Counts

> Fury Blender lords (red fury, potion of strength, sword of +attacks, quickblood = death). Note, they might not have that much protection: potion is 20pts, and the swords are multiples of 20. So if he's got sword of bloodshed and potion of strength, he probably won't have more than 6+ ward and enchanted shield for 3+/6+. They can however heal themselves - hence they dislike killing blow!
> Mortis Engines are a pain. Kill them early, as they do more damage as time goes on. The improving regeneration also can make the above lords have a 4+ regen, which is annoying. Flaming weapons negate a lot of this, of course.
> Crypt Horrors are an effective roadblock with T5 5+ regen. Don't hit particularly hard though with S4.
> Blood Knights are blenders.
> Ethereal units are all over the shop.
> Ethereal *movement* (i.e. black knights) is also occasionally a surprise!
> Terrorgheists don't hit particularly hard, but their screams are pain.
> Raising turns zombies into hundred strong blocks in a couple of turns, almost accidentally.


Warriors of Chaos

> Seriously, their infantry hurts. Khorne marauders with great weapons swipe stuff, khorne halberd warriors do the same and live more. Tzeentch warriors with shields live.
> Third eye can steal spells but... meh.
> Hellcannons hurt. A lot.
> Lords can easily be walking around with 3++ (and usually 1-3+ armour).
> Their heroes *have* to challenge and accept challenge. Abuse.
> Warshrines can create the chosenstar, with 3++ ward saves and stubborn.


Wood Elves


> Arrows are surprisingly painful at short range with S4 BS4 (ignoring moving penalties).
> Hail of Doom Arrow is annoying.
> Stubborn treemen! Especially, stubborn treemen with healing from Life. Especially especially treeman ancient with annoyance of netlings (thankfully rare at less than 3k points).





That'll do for a rough summary.

[HalfBlood]

I play Daemons, pretty well he pretty much nailed it.

Chaos Daemons:

Bloodletters chew threw Knights/Heavily armored units. Not to mention killing your heros.They can surprise you with the 3D6 Charge banner.
SKulltaker will generally get a heroic killing blow in a challenge you just have to strike before his I 9.
Fateweaver provides any combination of spellls. My favorite are (Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers), not to mention casting Flesh to Stone, or Bironas Time Warp to buff the letters.
Flamers are cheap, and can pump out a ton of shots. Units that would be expected to take out Flamers generally fail. People usually throw in a Razorgor or something, Youd be surprised that they are S5 with 2A a pieace.
Flesh Hounds are just no shooty, by very fast Flamers that people underestimate.
Siren Song <3, I make you charge me or you automatically flee.
Keep of Secrets with Spirit Swallower, basically I hit you with 6 A rerollable then wound on 2's (mostlikely) with -5 to your armor. Then every time I wound you I heal a wound. Can generally hold up most units.
Lastly, Great Icon of Despair which is on the Bsb. It makes enemy Leadership within 12 inches of the Bsb -2 to their leadership.

[Why]

Wood elves have treekin, it's not much but most people facing a wood elf army the first time don't expect anything to do any damage, except treemen.

Ogre mournfangs are just unfair against most armies. Ironblaster is the best cannon in the game currently.

Beastmen have very killy lords. Scouting combat great bray shaman on a razorgor chariot is very nasty. Doombull steamroller can take out whole armies on his own. Bestigor hordes that eat everything.

Lizardmen have the terrible cowboy scar vets, "Oh it's just one guy on a little lizard he won't do much harm." The said guy then turns out to be a one man hammer. Slann, rumination is very unfriendly and he steals your sixes. Salamanders causing 15 wounds a turn!!!!! Blade of realities lord can be mean for all you ogre players out their.

Can't really comment on much else.

[madival]

That's a lot of information gaargod, thank you.

[Snake1311]

Dwarfs

> Artillery is super reliable and dangerous as hell. S4/5 stone throwers, rerollable cannons, any of them might be flaming...
> Stubborn hammerers.
> Lords can be functionally unkillable. Or take your head off. Thankfully, not both.
> Screw your magic phase - I have like +4 dispel dice and 2+ scrolls.
> Anvil will destroy support units. Or let those miners who entered from the back of the board charge immediately. Issues.

I'm confused, how is anything on this list a 'surprise'? You can see the artillery deployed on the board, you can see the hammerers, runesmiths, Anvil; you can see the lord and the assumption is that yes, he will have some gear. Miners are kind of a surprise but you will either have your opponent tell you they are in his list, or you can easily figure it out by noticing the missing points if he's being a douche.

There are relatively few surprises in the dwarf army, they are all rune-based, and the majority of them are expected:

- Flaming on a warmachine: everyone has this, so it will hardly catch you off guard; however it is technically a surprise.
- Spelleater runes: everyone knows you will have dispelling items, but removing the spell someone was hoping to spam on 6 dice all day can sometimes screw with people who don't expect it.
- Rune of challenge: the best 'surprise' in the book bar none; this wins games even if people expect it and is the only major candidate for this list.
- Rune of slow: -d6 to charge range against the unit - can sometimes cause hiccups in enemy plans
- Rune of dismay: bad pick, but can be used for the lulz. Will definitely be a surprise since thisd is truly unexpected. Because no one takes it. Because it sucks.
- Tanking/damage gear: no more of a shock than the stuff available in the BRB really, but people still get caught off guard when your chars are immune to killing blow.


Also, I can't see Assassins in neither your DE or Skaven lists, surely thats the definition of a dirty trick?

[Ville]

Gaargod's list is a good representation of each army's strong points, but most of them aren't really "nasty surprises". At least not for me.

In the last game I played against Dark Elves, I was absolutely not surprised about the Hydra, Black Guard or Stabby Dagger with Shadow. I had expected them all. What came as a surprise, was the SC assassin Shadowblade popping up next to my general on turn 1. Holy smoke, Batman!

[Gaargod]

Yeah, missed a few things (including assassins and master rune of challenge ). Saying that, was getting bored halfway through it . Also didn't bother with non-competitive choices (didn't even think about shadowblade, as he basically just isn't taken AFAIK in tournaments).

I'd classify nasty surprises as not necessarily expecting a unit to do X. If I looked at hammerers across the table, I see dwarves with great weapons. However, they're actually Ws5 Stubborn dwarves with great weapons. This is not expected. Or even if it is, it's pretty easy to forget about stubborn in the heat of the moment. Maybe it was just strong points, but still worth consideration.