Refusing a challenge and whips?

[TrojanWolf]

Here's one that's got me curious.

I usually take a Master Moulder with an electro-whip, who has to be in the front rank of his Rat Ogres. Say I refuse a challenge, and he gets sent to the back rank (in a position where he could theoretically still attack with the whip rules, eg, with only one rank of ROgres in front of him). Can he still attack using the whip rules, or does he automatically forfeit his attacks when refusing the challenge?

I ask this because it's a very Skaven thing to do, to attack from a point where your foe can't hit you back.

[T10]

If you refuse the challenge your opponent gets to pick a character (not a champion!) that must retire from the combat.
The retired character must be moved to a position where he cannot fight.
The retired character does not get to fight that close combat round.
The retired character's unit cannot use his Leadership in that close combat round.

-T10

[TrojanWolf]

If you refuse the challenge your opponent gets to pick a character (not a champion!) that must retire from the combat.
The retired character must be moved to a position where he cannot fight.
The retired character does not get to fight that close combat round.
The retired character's unit cannot use his Leadership in that close combat round.

-T10

So, a Master Moulder can't be retired from a combat because he's a unit champion?
If there's only one rank of ROgres, where does a character who has a whip (such as Throt the Unclean) get retired to?
Fair enough.
Verminous Valour disagrees with you (in the case of Skaven, anyway).

Another question I thought of is, how many Packmasters can a Packmaster fight behind if he has a whip? Let's take the following set up for example:

M R R R R T
P - - - - P
P R R R R P
P
R R R R

M = Master Moulder
R = Rat Ogre
T = Throt the Unclean
P = Packmaster

Do Packmasters get to attack over the heads of other Packmasters because they're smaller than Rat Ogres (being on the same base as Giant Rats)?
Or are they limited to attacking so long as their position would have them behind the first rank of Rat Ogres (because they're in a unit of Rat Ogres)?
Or are they limited to the usual rules for supporting attacks because whips don't have the Fight In Extra Ranks rule?

[T10]

So, a Master Moulder can't be retired from a combat because he's a unit champion?

That is correct.

If there's only one rank of ROgres, where does a character who has a whip (such as Throt the Unclean) get retired to?

Is the Rat Ogre unit a unit of 20mm models or a unit of 40mm models? (It's a trick question: Nobody knows)

Suffice to say that Throt must be moved to a position in the unit where he cannot fight. If this is not possible, then the challenge cannot be refused but must be accepted by someone (not necessarilly Throt).

Another question I thought of is, how many Packmasters can a Packmaster fight behind if he has a whip? Let's take the following set up for example:

M R R R R T
P - - - - P
P R R R R P
P
R R R R

M = Master Moulder
R = Rat Ogre
T = Throt the Unclean
P = Packmaster

Do Packmasters get to attack over the heads of other Packmasters because they're smaller than Rat Ogres (being on the same base as Giant Rats)?
Or are they limited to attacking so long as their position would have them behind the first rank of Rat Ogres (because they're in a unit of Rat Ogres)?
Or are they limited to the usual rules for supporting attacks because whips don't have the Fight In Extra Ranks rule?

I forget how the whips works, but the issue is rather muddied from the start: Is the "default" base footprint of the unit considered to be 20mm or 40mm?

If it is 20mm then each Rat Ogre can be considered to take up the space of 4 models! One rank of Rat Ogres is the equivalent of two ranks of normal models. This is great news for the unit's rank bonus, but also sucks since a second rank of Rat Ogres will actually make up the unit's 3rd and 4th rank so you'll miss out on rank bonus.

If we go for 40mm base footprints, then how do the pack masters fit into this?

It's a crazy unit. My best advice is to count the number of models in front of the attacking model and not complicate things beyond that.

-T10

[TrojanWolf]

As far as the 20mm vs 40mm goes, only Rat Ogres are counted for purposes of rank bonuses and such. So a unit of Rat Ogres will get a rank bonus provided there are at least three Rat Ogres in each rank, and the Packmasters and attached characters are the ones who give it the SiN rule but are ignored for that purpose. Packmasters can effectively be placed anywhere in the unit, so long as their position isn't ridiculous (eg, a conga line off the back of the unit). So I would lean towards it being a unit of 40mm models with a few odd models.

As far as whips go, they allow a model to make an attack from behind up to three ranks of Giant Rats (20mm) or behind a single rank of Rat Ogres (40mm). That's pretty much how the rule is written, so I expect no one considered that Packmasters might be placed behind one another as far as actually writing the rule goes. If I had to give a ruling, I would put it down to a model with a whip could attack provided they were in the correct position in the unit to do so (eg, a Packmaster being no further away than immediately behind the first rank of Rat Ogres) even if they were behind other Packmasters or characters.

Which is probably just a long winded way of restating your best advice.

I wonder if GW still has that email for rules queries. Might be worth asking them to find out their stance.

[Razaan]

If you refuse the challenge your opponent gets to pick a character (not a champion!) that must retire from the combat.
The retired character must be moved to a position where he cannot fight.
The retired character does not get to fight that close combat round.
The retired character's unit cannot use his Leadership in that close combat round.

-T10

Remember that Skaven have a special rule that allows them to decline a challenge by moving their own character to the back of the unit without penalty.

[T10]

Not quite. If a Skaven character is retired then Verminous Valour allows that his Ld can still be used. Any other penalties (such as not being allowed to attack) are still in effect.

[Samaeus]

The rules actually just say that the character has to be moved out of base contact, and that he can't fight for that round, not that they need to be moved somewhere they couldn't fight (p102 midway down right side in 2 places), so as long as there's at least more than one complete rank or space on the end out of contact, retiring is possible!

[Zirkonicky]

On the same question but slightly different:
Can you issue a challenge against a champion then if the champion (if he declines) can still fight?

[TrojanWolf]

On the same question but slightly different:
Can you issue a challenge against a champion then if the champion (if he declines) can still fight?

I think it's one challenge per combat phase. If the challenge is declined, then no challenge that round. If the combat is ongoing, a challenge can be declared again next round (provided that there is a model able to issue and accept challenges on each side).

[T10]

On the same question but slightly different:
Can you issue a challenge against a champion then if the champion (if he declines) can still fight?

You never issue a challenge "against" someone. The challenge is an open invitation to an ass-kicking: Your opponent picks one (or none) that accept.

A champion is not required to accept challenges, and cannot be selected to be retired. He gets to fight as normal.

-T10