Marine Paradox

[xalfej]

Assuming you are willing to play against models that are unpainted or unprimed....

Unpainted or Unprimed marine, modeled correctly, and played as an Ultramarine. Fine.

Unpainted or Unprimed marine, modeled correctly, and played as a Blood Angel. Fine.

Marine Painted as Ultramarine and used as Blood Angel. HERESY.

This would fit any other form of marine body as well...

What am I missing? Why are some people so offended at the idea of a marine chapters models using another's rules?

~xalfej

[wyvirn]

Because there is is a stimga associated with this. People get the feeling that you are codex jumping, trying to get the best army without putting the time or money into making a new army and just buying the 'best' codex to win.
Or it could be because the market is supersaturated with different marine armies, each trying to keep or make their own identity. So when a play blurs the line between the two, it weakens the reason why there needs to be a separate codex for each chapter.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Because there is is a stimga associated with this.

Holding the stigma can be detrimental to certain parts of the gaming community. On the flipside of the coin; they're just models. I mean, it's one thing to use coins as game pieces (I knew a player who did this ). It's another thing to make models the way you like them painted and then just want to have fun with some new/different rules.

I get the feeling it's this group (players such as myself) that is hurt most by the WAACers that Rick Blaine tends to avoid.

[Chaos257]

Because there is is a stimga associated with this. People get the feeling that you are codex jumping, trying to get the best army without putting the time or money into making a new army and just buying the 'best' codex to win.
Or it could be because the market is supersaturated with different marine armies, each trying to keep or make their own identity. So when a play blurs the line between the two, it weakens the reason why there needs to be a separate codex for each chapter.

Honestly I never understood the new marine codexes. To use the phrase I'd say they've gone full retard.

Why should a marine player have to use inferior marines ? One army get storm bolters the other get vanilla marine with bolters ? ?

It would be if they released another nids codex called " blood tyranids " and genestealers were actually useable in that list, but the wore pink top hots. I'd be annoyed and want to use the new list.

[Gondrak]

people that freak out about this are usually not worth to play with

[Veteran Sergeant]

people that freak out about this are usually not worth to play with

Certainly.

With the Battle Company I'm currently modeling up (see sig link), I'm purposefully making sure they will be "Counts As" compatible with Standard, Blood Angels,and Space Wolves codex books, simply because it's absolutely silly to buy and build three different armies if I can play three armies using one set of models because at some point I might want to mix it up a bit. Now, if I wanted to use my Space Marines to play Eldar, I can see where the gripe might be a bit more realistic. I've been at this game for as long, or longer than most, and seen it grow, and in other ways, decline. Games Workshop has done a good job brainwashing its player-base away from the fun, hobbyist-based game it used to be and turning them into rigid thinking, hyper-competitive, purists and rules lawyers.

Amusingly enough, I actually think that having Ultramarines models and using a different codex makes perfect sense. After all, they are supposed to be the master of warfare, learned students of the Codex Astartes, who would be able to easily adapt their combat doctrines to the battle situation at hand. People don't seem to understand that being a "Codex Chapter" means that your Chapter is organized along a certain set of guidelines and your training and recruitment follow a standardized routine, not that you are completely unable to use initiative and improvisation in how you fight wars. The military tactics and strategy portion of the Codex Astartes is a collection of guidelines and experiences, not an "If A, Then B" instruction manual for dummies. The Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter, with the exception of the allowances for the Death Company due to their flawed gene seed.

[S_A_T_S]

Amusingly enough, I actually think that having Ultramarines models and using a different codex makes perfect sense. After all, they are supposed to be the master of warfare, learned students of the Codex Astartes, who would be able to easily adapt their combat doctrines to the battle situation at hand. People don't seem to understand that being a "Codex Chapter" means that your Chapter is organized along a certain set of guidelines and your training and recruitment follow a standardized routine, not that you are completely unable to use initiative and improvisation in how you fight wars. The military tactics and strategy portion of the Codex Astartes is a collection of guidelines and experiences, not an "If A, Then B" instruction manual for dummies. The Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter, with the exception of the allowances for the Death Company due to their flawed gene seed.

I don't think you are thinking about this the same way most of us are. Yes, you can use another codex to represent different organisational structures that you can't represent with your own codex (see my post above, especially the reference to Captain Korvydae). The problem lies in the special rules. Would you argue that, due to their "initiative", a codex-organised force of ultramarines decide to drop all the heavy weapons from their tactical squads, force their scouts and veterans to swap armour (and in the case of the scouts, go a little crazy in the process), ALL become very skilled at counter attacking compared to every other marine in the universe, and gain a 6th sense that allows them to sense enemies (significantly better than any other space marines, at any rates), and also happen to find some animals that they allow to follow them around and fight with them? I am sure you could, but you WOULD need to spend quite some time thinking about the background story for your abnormal Ultramarines to justify it. Same goes for an entire force of Ultras developing psychic powers at the same time, and also managing to find a crap-load of power weapons. Far too coincidental for people to NOT think you are WAAC, unless you can give them justification in the form of an interesting backstory.

Theme is justification, but theme requires restricting yourself, your choices and the rules to fit that theme.

I'm not saying that everyone who has a counts as army is a WAAC jerk, in fact many counts-asers have put more time, money and sweat into their armies than I have with mine. But for every person who genuinely feels X army is better represented by Y, there are two people who think army X is stronger than army Y. I can't think of a poster asking whether it would be OK to represent Grey Knights or Space wolves as Chaos Marines, it always seems to be the other way around.

A counts-as army can be awesome, and can let you use an army that currently has no rules legitimately (see - Squats as IG/Orks, Kroot as Dark Eldar) even a well-thought out Ultramarines-lost-lost-in-the-warp-for-decades as Space Wolves. The problem, as you say, and the OP mentions, is people who have an army already, then something 'better' comes along and they abandon their previous codex with no thought to anything other than the 'better' rules. People I most enjoy playing as 'live' their army - my most regular opponent calls the shooting phase the Dakka Phase, the assault phase the Krumpin' phase, will say "these boyz is gonna dakka-dakka that squad", and will shout (or at least say in an orkish way) "WAAAAAAAAAAARGH!" when he calls one, instead of just saying "I'm calling a Waaargh this turn." This is not the sort of person who decides "Oh, GK have a more powerful codex, gonna use my unpainted orks as counts-as GK", which is the type of person we are complaining about, cos they are generally dicks.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I don't think you are thinking about this the same way most of us are. Yes, you can use another codex to represent different organisational structures that you can't represent with your own codex (see my post above, especially the reference to Captain Korvydae). The problem lies in the special rules. Would you argue that, due to their "initiative", a codex-organised force of ultramarines decide to drop all the heavy weapons from their tactical squads, force their scouts and veterans to swap armour (and in the case of the scouts, go a little crazy in the process), ALL become very skilled at counter attacking compared to every other marine in the universe, and gain a 6th sense that allows them to sense enemies (significantly better than any other space marines, at any rates), and also happen to find some animals that they allow to follow them around and fight with them? I am sure you could, but you WOULD need to spend quite some time thinking about the background story for your abnormal Ultramarines to justify it. Same goes for an entire force of Ultras developing psychic powers at the same time, and also managing to find a crap-load of power weapons. Far too coincidental for people to NOT think you are WAAC, unless you can give them justification in the form of an interesting backstory.

See, you're far too worried with making sure all the details match exactly. That's the unimaginative rules-lawyering and narrow-mindedness behavior I was talking about.

On the other hand, I'm looking at it as utilizing a list like BA to represent a force of Ultramarines who have adapted their tactics to use an all out assault force. And the niggling bit of the Black Rage is simply a game mechanic you have to deal with to represent it on the table. You just shrug and get over it. Using the Wolf Codex is really no different. The Tactical Squads are dropping their heavy weapons to become more mobile. The Ultramarines Veterans aren't becoming scouts. The Scouts are just getting a slight increase to their WS and BS (something they had in prior editions anyway...). See, when you actually have imagination, when you actually have a narrative for your army, you aren't worried about the nits and bits of the tabletop rules. You're confusing the ability to write an elementary framework story based on an existing template and adhere to it religiously as imagination, lol. That's not developing a theme. That's using an existing theme and parroting it. There's nothing wrong with that. However, it's neither the best, nor the only, way to do it.

Really, the problem with the game is that Games Workshop has ruined it, and newer players like you can't remember back when it was more flexible and less tailored to sell as many models as possible. It develops an elitist attitude amongst the newer players where anyone trying to deviate in the slightest bit is to be despised. It's a game kiddos. Just have fun with it. Stop worrying so much about what other people do with the plastic toy soldiers they bought simply because they didn't paint them in the color Games Workshop instructed, just because you might have chosen to do what you were told.

[totgeboren]

Really, the problem with the game is that Games Workshop has ruined it, and newer players like you can't remember back when it was more flexible and less tailored to sell as many models as possible.

I always though of it the other way around. Us oldies tend to want people to put some heart and soul into their armies, and the new kids just wanna play with the latest shiny toys.
I would be surprised if S_A_T_S is a new player, and I think the 'elitist attitude' problem is much more prevalent amongst the vets than the newb. :P

[S_A_T_S]

See, you're far too worried with making sure all the details match exactly. That's the unimaginative rules-lawyering and narrow-mindedness behavior I was talking about.

On the other hand, I'm looking at it as utilizing a list like BA to represent a force of Ultramarines who have adapted their tactics to use an all out assault force. And the niggling bit of the Black Rage is simply a game mechanic you have to deal with to represent it on the table. You just shrug and get over it. Using the Wolf Codex is really no different. The Tactical Squads are dropping their heavy weapons to become more mobile. The Ultramarines Veterans aren't becoming scouts. The Scouts are just getting a slight increase to their WS and BS (something they had in prior editions anyway...). See, when you actually have imagination, when you actually have a narrative for your army, you aren't worried about the nits and bits of the tabletop rules. You're confusing the ability to write an elementary framework story based on an existing template and adhere to it religiously as imagination, lol. That's not developing a theme. That's using an existing theme and parroting it. There's nothing wrong with that. However, it's neither the best, nor the only, way to do it.

Really, the problem with the game is that Games Workshop has ruined it, and newer players like you can't remember back when it was more flexible and less tailored to sell as many models as possible. It develops an elitist attitude amongst the newer players where anyone trying to deviate in the slightest bit is to be despised. It's a game kiddos. Just have fun with it. Stop worrying so much about what other people do with the plastic toy soldiers they bought simply because they didn't paint them in the colour Games Workshop instructed, just because you might have chosen to do what you were told.

See, again you don't seem to understand what I say. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. What you say above (hightlighted in red) is exactly what I meant. My example about the Space Wolves was listing the different things you would ideally need a justification/story for if you were to include them in your Ultramarines-counts-as-Space-Wolves list. Someone making a THEMED list is just not going to have all those options (even a Space Wolf player won't use all those options), but if they do end up taking particularly 'non-codex' units, they would ideally need an explanation/story, as you have provided in the quote above. All I would want is some little back story or thought to have gone into making your army. I really don't want to think that you have just decided "BA are hard, everyone on Warseer says they are really competitive, so I am going to give up playing my Ultras and just use the painted models I have for that army as BA instead."

As for "new player like you"; girl, please. I have been playing this game for more than 18 years. That may not be Rogue Trader days, but it's pretty damn close (2nd ed released in '93, I start in '94). Let's not add age assumptions to the WAAC assumptions that we are discussing.

[Paul 8v]

I think Wyvirn is right, if you're doing it just to ge the better rules it's kind of cheating, Ultramarines have thier own Codex, it'd be like using Dark eldar models as Grey knights or something in my opinion. Unless of course you were just trialing the blood angels rules to see if you liked them

[Theocracity]

It might be that an unpainted army at least has the excuse that you haven't made a decision yet. One that you've already painted as one chapter has a harder time masquerading as another.

I don't have a problem with it for friendly games, or just for testing a new list out.

[Chapters Unwritten]

It might be that an unpainted army at least has the excuse that you haven't made a decision yet. One that you've already painted as one chapter has a harder time masquerading as another.

I don't have a problem with it for friendly games, or just for testing a new list out.

It's especially obnoxious when the person in question used the army as one book and then another the minute a hot new book came out.

[MajorWesJanson]

But of course if you do a custom chapter, then it is fine to use whatever book you like.
Seems sort of hypocritical to me. As long as the force is wsywyg, why not use other books? Using the DA book for an Ultramarines first company list, or BA for 8th company are perfectly rational reasons to use a book that is not their own. Some lists just can't be done in a certain book, and marines are similar enough that they count as each other easily.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

But of course if you do a custom chapter, then it is fine to use whatever book you like.
Seems sort of hypocritical to me. As long as the force is wsywyg, why not use other books? Using the DA book for an Ultramarines first company list, or BA for 8th company are perfectly rational reasons to use a book that is not their own. Some lists just can't be done in a certain book, and marines are similar enough that they count as each other easily.

This.

Just this.

[S_A_T_S]

As long as the force is wsywyg, why not use other books? Using the DA book for an Ultramarines first company list, or BA for 8th company are perfectly rational reasons to use a book that is not their own.

Woah, wait, what? Ultramarines 8th company have sanguinary priests? Furioso dreadnoughts? DEATH COMPANY?!?! Has Ward finally done it? Has he finally given the Ultramarines EVERYTHING?!?!

Point is, it is only OK to use another codex instead of the one your army is painted as IF it is a themed force. If you turn up with Ultramarines 8th company, where you only have captain, assault marines (no infernus or hand flamers), bikes, chaplains, speeders and MAYBE a librarian, that sounds like an interesting use of a book to me. I'd also hope you would forget the Red Thirst rule to keep it themed. Same goes for the Ultras 1st company - you can't do an all-terminator list using a different book, so it allows that theme. Just don't have any special characters or ravenwing.

If your "8th company" includes FNP bubbles, Death company or Stormravens, I am not going to refuse to play with you, I'm just going to think you are a band-wagon jumping ******** (strong words, but I'm tired and hungry). Instead of using BA, why not just take the Raven Guard character from IA8 that lets you take Assault Marines as troops? You can use the correct codex, not have to ham-string yourself by missing out significant rules, and people will have no excuse to bitch at you about it.

[Faeslayer]

I think it's usually fine. When it's dumb or WAAC, well, you know it when you see it.

There are no hard and fast rules in these matters.

[Lord Damocles]

Point is, it is only OK to use another codex instead of the one your army is painted as IF it is a themed force.

This largely sums up my feeling on the issue.


With the addition that if you can make basically the same list with your 'proper' codex, then you should. The Blood Angels/Ultramarines 8th/Captain Korvidae example is a good one here.

[Stonerhino]

This largely sums up my feeling on the issue.


With the addition that if you can make basically the same list with your 'proper' codex, then you should. The Blood Angels/Ultramarines 8th/Captain Korvidae example is a good one here.

This is basically how I feel.

Except that if any of your squads rolls a 1 for the Red thirst. Then you are no longer playing the Ultramarine's 8th Co. But a BA successer in blue armor.

And fluff is a terrible reason to force fit your army into a codex they don't use. Especially when you can field a near identical list with their own codex.

[hazmiter]

This is basically how I feel.

Except that if any of your squads rolls a 1 for the Red thirst. Then you are no longer playing the Ultramarine's 8th Co. But a BA successer in blue armor.

And fluff is a terrible reason to force fit your army into a codex they don't use. Especially when you can field a near identical list with their own codex.

The solution there is simple, inform your opponent that you the player, will not be making red thirst roles, no, my sanguinary priest has not got a fnp bubble of furious charge. You pay the same in the vanilla codex as what you do in Ba.
So discounting all blood angels special rules before the match, and not using blood angels only items stops confusion. also no death company, furioso, blood angels sanguine guard etc....