Marine Paradox

[xalfej]

Assuming you are willing to play against models that are unpainted or unprimed....

Unpainted or Unprimed marine, modeled correctly, and played as an Ultramarine. Fine.

Unpainted or Unprimed marine, modeled correctly, and played as a Blood Angel. Fine.

Marine Painted as Ultramarine and used as Blood Angel. HERESY.

This would fit any other form of marine body as well...

What am I missing? Why are some people so offended at the idea of a marine chapters models using another's rules?

~xalfej

[wyvirn]

Because there is is a stimga associated with this. People get the feeling that you are codex jumping, trying to get the best army without putting the time or money into making a new army and just buying the 'best' codex to win.
Or it could be because the market is supersaturated with different marine armies, each trying to keep or make their own identity. So when a play blurs the line between the two, it weakens the reason why there needs to be a separate codex for each chapter.

[Gondrak]

people that freak out about this are usually not worth to play with

[Paul 8v]

I think Wyvirn is right, if you're doing it just to ge the better rules it's kind of cheating, Ultramarines have thier own Codex, it'd be like using Dark eldar models as Grey knights or something in my opinion. Unless of course you were just trialing the blood angels rules to see if you liked them

[Theocracity]

It might be that an unpainted army at least has the excuse that you haven't made a decision yet. One that you've already painted as one chapter has a harder time masquerading as another.

I don't have a problem with it for friendly games, or just for testing a new list out.

[MajorWesJanson]

But of course if you do a custom chapter, then it is fine to use whatever book you like.
Seems sort of hypocritical to me. As long as the force is wsywyg, why not use other books? Using the DA book for an Ultramarines first company list, or BA for 8th company are perfectly rational reasons to use a book that is not their own. Some lists just can't be done in a certain book, and marines are similar enough that they count as each other easily.

[AlphariusOmegon20]

But of course if you do a custom chapter, then it is fine to use whatever book you like.
Seems sort of hypocritical to me. As long as the force is wsywyg, why not use other books? Using the DA book for an Ultramarines first company list, or BA for 8th company are perfectly rational reasons to use a book that is not their own. Some lists just can't be done in a certain book, and marines are similar enough that they count as each other easily.

This.

Just this.

[El_Machinae]

Well, it would be like playing with coins as markers. You can play a perfectly fine game of 40k or of chess using coins as proxies. But we pay a small fortune to have WYSIWYG in the game. For everyone, their army is an investment, and insisting that you play with coins while we play with models devalues people's efforts.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with new players using proxy figures and models. We're in it for the fun, and not just the love

[Rick Blaine]

It's a good sign the guy on the other side of the table is a WAACer. Not perfect by any means, but all other things being equal, if I can choose amongst multiple unknown opponents, I'll pick one who doesn't show obvious signs of having just hopped to the latest & greatest Marine powerdex. Every once in a while I might do someone an injustice... but I'll save myself a lot of crappy games.

[WildWeasel]

And doing the same favor for those you pass over. Win-win!

[TheDoctor]

I really don't like this.

That being said, the majority of people I play against who do this are WAAC players. There is one guy who shows up to tournaments, has a beautifully painted Dark Angels army. He only plays them as either Space Wolves or Blood Angels, and tends to alternate between tournaments, and is always some version of razorback spam.
The other cases are similar to this situation.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Because there is is a stimga associated with this.

Holding the stigma can be detrimental to certain parts of the gaming community. On the flipside of the coin; they're just models. I mean, it's one thing to use coins as game pieces (I knew a player who did this ). It's another thing to make models the way you like them painted and then just want to have fun with some new/different rules.

I get the feeling it's this group (players such as myself) that is hurt most by the WAACers that Rick Blaine tends to avoid.

[totgeboren]

I agree with Rick Blaine. Given the choice, I will play someone with an army in the right colours. However, given the choice, I will play the one with the best painted army, after that, just a painted army. A painted army but using the 'wrong' codex is actually better for me than an unpainted one.
What I like most about the game is the fluff and models which support it, and the way the models look on the tabletop. It looks much better with colours, so I prefer that.
However, having your models painted as Ultramarines whilst using the BA codex is really just annoying for the opponent. We are all free to make up our own chapters, so if you want blue marines who like assaults, make up your own chapter which does just that.
My brother for example uses the standard SM codex, whilst using red marines, and many of them are even BA models. He uses a DYI chapter which started of as BA, but with a quick touch of the paintbrush, they got a new chapter symbol and are no longer BA.
It's not really the colour that is important, but the effort you put into your army. I think most people are more into 40k because of the fluff than they realise, and having someone just ignoring the background takes away from they enjoyment these people get out of the game. And it is also a mix of having pride in your team (like in in sports, no one likes someone who always cheers for the winning team. Being a fan isn't suppose to work like that, you are suppose to have your favourite team that you stick with even if they are not always the best in the league).

[Chrisb3]

It's bad sportsman ship to proxy your army as what you see as an imbalanced codex. It's just the same as saying that your eldar are now counts as dark eldar because dark eldar are more powerful, it just so happens that the models overlap with different flavours of Space Marine armies so it's very easy to do and they are updated more frequently. Think about the poor Tau player who doesn't have this option, his army is updated once every 10 years and yours once every year (even though it hasn't).

[Theocracity]

Well, it would be like playing with coins as markers. You can play a perfectly fine game of 40k or of chess using coins as proxies. But we pay a small fortune to have WYSIWYG in the game. For everyone, their army is an investment, and insisting that you play with coins while we play with models devalues people's efforts.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with new players using proxy figures and models. We're in it for the fun, and not just the love

He specified that the models are WYSISWG, just that the paint schemes are different.

It's more of a grey area then. What if I play Ultramarines, and they're painted as Ultramarines with WYSIWYG, but I convert them using a bunch of Space Wolf bits because I think they look cooler? You wouldn't ask that I remodel the whole lot of them.

I think people are making sweeping generalizations based on the thought that any pickup game could face a dreaded WAAC shibboleth. Just talk with them and find out what kind of a player they are, rather than worry about following rules designed to not play the games this hobby is all about.

[Bubble Ghost]

It just comes from an understandable resentment of the fact that marine players have this option at all - players of other armies need to have a certain level of courage of their convictions in order to invest in that army, and by comparison having the option to change your rules like socks seems like a soft option, a cop out. It's more ambiguous than that, of course - you can't tar everyone who does it with the same brush, and there are plenty of perfectly reasonable and sporting reasons to do it. But I woud imagine that's where the basic idea that it's just not cricket comes from.

[yabbadabba]

For me its snobbery and reactionism. As long as I can tell what's shooting or hitting me you can paint all your marines as Barbie dolls as far as I care. It's your army, you paid for it..

[Charistoph]

For me its snobbery and reactionism. As long as I can tell what's shooting or hitting me you can paint all your marines as Barbie dolls as far as I care. It's your army, you paid for it..

If they're painted like Barbie dolls, I'd expect them to be Marines dedicated to Slaanesh (or Fallen).

But that IS what the pre-game is for, to set the basic ground rules, house rules, unit identification etc, that you choose to play by. That goes for 40K as much as it does for Monopoly or Risk. If you don't like/can't agree on the rules, then you don't play. Simple.

I remember having an almost similar discussion on another forum with some one who suggested plopping down a Pathfinder unit in an Apocalypse game without a Devilfish in site, without any other word spoken, was legal. I couldn't agree with that, because it is operating out of the standard definition of the rules for that unit and that has to be discussed before the game gets underway.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Think about the poor Tau player who doesn't have this option.

Except that if proxying is in question, the Tau player does have the option. He just needs to be more creative with his approach. You'd be hard pressed to call Kroot models Necron Destroyers. But termagants or hormagaunts? That's a little more understandable. Although there's an established background setting and unit ID, agreeing on rules is a two way street. I think it's unfair to expect people to play their models a certain way just because GW tells them to. Where's the fun in that? No one would EVER buy SoB penitent engines or Dark Eldar Mandrakes if they were forced to do it like that. At least not for use in games.

Putting power in the hands of players to decide what models have certain characteristics can be a dangerous thing. But it can also make the game more enjoyable and more accessible to people if done responsibly. Look at the standard carnifex => tervigon proxy that loads of tyranid players use. Now there's actually a Tervigon model, but for years and years many tyranid players probably felt that their games were enriched by the proxy, and I doubt their opponents minded so much.

[Chem-Dog]

It's a good sign the guy on the other side of the table is a WAACer.

This for me.
The background material for the various factions and races is what draws a good many of us too an army, if your Salamanders are suddenly running as Blood Angels, you're essentially trampling over what a good number of people love most about the game for what? A tabletop advantage.