Marine Paradox

[Die Grünen Engel]

So, after reading some of he answers here i am kind of shocked.

You see, i came to the hobby because i like the modells. Mainly Space Marines. Since i dont really like on chapter "best" i planned [and am quite far alreaddy] to build a force normally played after vanilla rules, but consisting of different chapters, normally an HQ or special character with an attachement of marines. I.e.: Shrike [build from the captain modell from FW] and Vanguards in Raven Guard collors, a core of tactical/sternguard/devastators in Crimson Fist collors led by Pedro, Swordbreathren Terminators etc.
They are based fitting to each other and all are quite well painted, some far better.

Like i said, normally they shall be played as Vanilla Marines, all wysiwyg. But i might also try to use another codex now and then, IF i can get them on the table wysiwyg.

So, that would be a problem for some?

[Clarkson]

yes... as some people cant let things they dont like slide...

i have no problem with your multi coloured army... as long as i know what the units are... fist's are tacs. ravenguard = vanguard/assault, ultra dev's.. its your army.. as long as it makes sense why its like that.. then sure..

[Draconis]

and thats why i wouldn't play half the players here. They aren't here to have fun. They can say they are, but they aren't. If your opponent comes in with an ultramarine army, and wants to play blood angels rules, let him. Its no different than if he actually came with a real blood angels army. maybe he just wants to playtest the BA rules before buying? who cares? its not your army. have fun with the game, let your opponent play what he wants as long as everything is explained and easy to recognize.


now obviously, this only applies for custom, fun games around the house. in tournies, thats a different story.

[rickyard]

However, I would point out that to a lot of players the colour scheme could be said to be part of WYSIWYG...when we see Ultramarine-painted models we think "Ultramarines". So by playing them as Blood Angels or Space Wolves there is the perception that you aren't playing WYSIWYG. Because those colour schemes are just as much part of the background as what a Lascannon or Plasma Gun looks like.

And that is why I like painting my models in custom schemes. Then no one can really question my motives when I say "these guys count as Black Templars". Now if you've played me a few times and then they are Space Wolves then you could wonder why the change. And maybe it's simply (and most likely) that I want to try something different. Of course that will probably come up before the game even starts.

Exactly, i consider painting and colours and symbols as just another indication of which army i have in front of me. You wouldn't accept a player that tells that a normal marine "count as" having a melta, in fact it is hard to play this way because in a 1.500 pts. army you can FORGET what that guy told you about that unit being that thing or the other "counting as" that other. I wouldn't like to play against a Tau armie counting as necrons, the same is aplicable to marine armies. Considering that you can do YOUR OWN chapter whit whichever rules you prefer, including lots of options by the inclusion of special characters just using the vanilla codex, in my opinion it takes guts to paint a dark angels army to use it as SW.

[Dreadlordpaul]

Exactly, i consider painting and colours and symbols as just another indication of which army i have in front of me. You wouldn't accept a player that tells that a normal marine "count as" having a melta, in fact it is hard to play this way because in a 1.500 pts. army you can FORGET what that guy told you about that unit being that thing or the other "counting as" that other. I wouldn't like to play against a Tau armie counting as necrons, the same is aplicable to marine armies. Considering that you can do YOUR OWN chapter whit whichever rules you prefer, including lots of options by the inclusion of special characters just using the vanilla codex, in my opinion it takes guts to paint a dark angels army to use it as SW.

So you wouldnt play a chaos marine player unless he was using the weak abysmall excuse of a codex?

[Fithos]

Can I use space wolf models and say they are Alpha legion infiltrating as wolves and thus use the chaos book rules with the wolf models?

[agurus1]

Can I use space wolf models and say they are Alpha legion infiltrating as wolves and thus use the chaos book rules with the wolf models?

no you can only use use Vanilla Marines painted as Raven Guard as count's as Alpha Legion. :P

[TheMav80]

Exactly, i consider painting and colours and symbols as just another indication of which army i have in front of me. You wouldn't accept a player that tells that a normal marine "count as" having a melta, in fact it is hard to play this way because in a 1.500 pts. army you can FORGET what that guy told you about that unit being that thing or the other "counting as" that other. I wouldn't like to play against a Tau armie counting as necrons, the same is aplicable to marine armies. Considering that you can do YOUR OWN chapter whit whichever rules you prefer, including lots of options by the inclusion of special characters just using the vanilla codex, in my opinion it takes guts to paint a dark angels army to use it as SW.

That is all different because it is hard to remember what counts as a melt gun or which chimera counts as a razorback and which is just a rhino.

That is a totally different thing from saying. "I am playing Blood Angels". Then you know the rules. You know that every model in the army is using BA rules. It isn't as though only some of them are BA, some are Vanilla, and some are SW.

Really? How hard is it to remember which codex your opponent is using?

[superdupermatt]

I have a custom chapter where they recently had their parent chapter revealed as the blood angels lineage. Because they were codex adherent they have tactical arrows on their shoulder pads despite being "assault". They're also a very light blue but have blood angels iconography all over. If someone refused to play me on the grounds of them not being the "right" colour I'd gladly pack my models up and not bother with them again.

If I had enough terminators to field an army I'd use the Dark Angels book to represent it, if you don't like it then jog on! Similarly if I felt like using the space marine codex then I will. As long as everything on the table is appropriately displayed then what is the problem?

[wilsongrahams]

I still see a double standard here on both sides of the argument at times. Some questions others have made being ignored because the answer falsifies the stance maybe.

The issues I have is that:

1/ Using standard marines as Space Wolves is WAAC, but buying space wolves models is not? If the list is the same, what is the difference here?

2/ If colour schemes are so important, would, using grey knights models and grey knights rules but with them painted gold make them a WAAC player? If models must use the 'correct' scheme and iconography to allow you to play them, then this army is as bad as blue blood angels.

3/ Using Blood Angels parts in a Flesh Tearers army is fine, despite having CODEX BLOOD ANGELS on the front cover, and the army is not representitive but 'Models must use the Rules etc presented'

4/ Should a player take Vulkan and Sigurius in the same army, which one would be the correct colour scheme to be a fair player, and which would make them a WAAC player?

My point is that, the rules, models, force organisation chart and fluff, are not tied down to any single mindset. Much of the issue is not with the rules themselves, as players will happily play grey knights, but with the fact a player hasn't gone and bought new models to do so when it is just as clear that this is not a misunderstanding issue that proxying can cause.
Why should a custom colour scheme be allowed to use any rule set and even any character from said codex and be perfectly fine, despite the fluff only applying to one individual in the galaxy, but you cannot have an ultramarines assault army to represent the 8th company on speed?

[Wishing]

One of the armies nominated for 'best army' at April's throne of skulls was a beautifully painted ultramarine army. Beautiful.

Led by a beautifully painted Vulkan.

It did not win best army.

Should it have won best army? The way you pose this statement makes for interesting food for thought as to whether counts-as is a factor when it comes to the public perception of what constitutes a "best army".

[Wishing]

I've got some suggested answers to your questions if you are interested.

1/ Using standard marines as Space Wolves is WAAC, but buying space wolves models is not? If the list is the same, what is the difference here?

The difference is that when you buy the space wolves models and play them as space wolves, you are showing that you love everything about the wolves. If you take some other marine type and only use the rules of the space wolves, you are showing that you don't love the wolves themselves, just their rules, and caring mainly about rules is associated with WAAC.

2/ If colour schemes are so important, would, using grey knights models and grey knights rules but with them painted gold make them a WAAC player? If models must use the 'correct' scheme and iconography to allow you to play them, then this army is as bad as blue blood angels.

The colour scheme is only relevant when it is the main distinguishing factor between different armies. Grey GK and gold GK do not have different codexes, but blue marines and red marines do have different codexes. Additionally, it is not about colour, but about identity. Blue blood angels are not counts-as if they have blood angel iconography and you call them a BA successor.

3/ Using Blood Angels parts in a Flesh Tearers army is fine, despite having CODEX BLOOD ANGELS on the front cover, and the army is not representitive but 'Models must use the Rules etc presented'

Because each codex specifically states that successor chapters also use the rules in their parent codex, and have successors as examples in their hobby pages.

4/ Should a player take Vulkan and Sigurius in the same army, which one would be the correct colour scheme to be a fair player, and which would make them a WAAC player?

Ignoring the WAAC thing, since everyone agrees that counts-as doesn't *always* mean WAAC, the "correct" non-counts-as way to paint an army which contains characters from different chapters is to paint half the army from one character's chapter and the other half from the other character's chapter (and assuming they are allied forces). That's the only non-counts-as way to represent those characters as fighting as part of their chapter's fighting men.

[yabbadabba]

The difference is that when you buy the space wolves models and play them as space wolves, you are showing that you love everything about the wolves. If you take some other marine type and only use the rules of the space wolves, you are showing that you don't love the wolves themselves, just their rules, and caring mainly about rules is associated with WAAC.

Unless of course you prefer the old fashioned Space Wolf image of regular marines in power armour. Or its a successor chapter. Or its a chapter that plays like SWs but doesn't look like them, your own chapter in other words.

The colour scheme is only relevant when it is the main distinguishing factor between different armies. Grey GK and gold GK do not have different codexes, but blue marines and red marines do have different codexes. Additionally, it is not about colour, but about identity. Blue blood angels are not counts-as if they have blood angel iconography and you call them a BA successor.

You contradict yourself here, as well as it not being true; White Consuls have White Consul imagery, White Scar colours and yet play like Ultramarines

Because each codex specifically states that successor chapters also use the rules in their parent codex, and have successors as examples in their hobby pages.

Actually it doesn't because not every chapter is listed in every codex. So there will be chapters out there which do not have an associated codex.There are approx. currently 150/1000 Chapters named and recognised by GW. That leaves a lot of space for creativity.

Ignoring the WAAC thing, since everyone agrees that counts-as doesn't *always* mean WAAC, the "correct" non-counts-as way to paint an army which contains characters from different chapters is to paint half the army from one character's chapter and the other half from the other character's chapter (and assuming they are allied forces). That's the only non-counts-as way to represent those characters as fighting as part of their chapter's fighting men.

Don't agree with that in the slightest. There was such a thing as a "Crusade" army for Marines, but that was something specific.

So these are answers, just not necessarily the right ones.

[UberBeast]

I'd rather play against a painted army than an unpaited one. That being said it does get a little old when the guy fielding his motorcycle-red Blood Angels army for the last year suddenly starts fielding them as spacewolves, then GK, then anything and everything but Blood Angels. Strip them and repaint them, or buy some actual models from the army you want to play and slowly mix them in or something, but don't just keep dumping the same mono-colored mess out of a box full of broken bits onto the table and then trying to net-list your opponents with "counts as" armies over and over again.

Paint the army, play the army.

[Mr Zoat]

So, after reading some of he answers here i am kind of shocked.

You see, i came to the hobby because i like the modells. Mainly Space Marines. Since i dont really like on chapter "best" i planned [and am quite far alreaddy] to build a force normally played after vanilla rules, but consisting of different chapters, normally an HQ or special character with an attachement of marines. I.e.: Shrike [build from the captain modell from FW] and Vanguards in Raven Guard collors, a core of tactical/sternguard/devastators in Crimson Fist collors led by Pedro, Swordbreathren Terminators etc.
They are based fitting to each other and all are quite well painted, some far better.

Like i said, normally they shall be played as Vanilla Marines, all wysiwyg. But i might also try to use another codex now and then, IF i can get them on the table wysiwyg.

So, that would be a problem for some?

That sounds like a Marine Crusade force to me. Properly speaking there should be one unifying badge -perhaps on a kneepad- which indicates that they are operating under a unified command.

[Gondrak]

after reading the whole thread, my first comment is just about right.

[Stonerhino]

1/ Using standard marines as Space Wolves is WAAC, but buying space wolves models is not? If the list is the same, what is the difference here?

This:

If you take some other marine type and only use the rules of the space wolves, you are showing that you don't love the wolves themselves, just their rules, and caring mainly about rules is associated with WAAC.

2/ If colour schemes are so important, would, using grey knights models and grey knights rules but with them painted gold make them a WAAC player? If models must use the 'correct' scheme and iconography to allow you to play them, then this army is as bad as blue blood angels.

The color of the model does not matter at all. It's this idea that muddies up the debate. "I can't have Blue Blood Angels?". It's a ridiculous argument. It's when you take Ultramarnies/others and use Blood Angel's rules, it's the same as the Space Wolf answer:

If you take some other marine type and only use the rules of the space wolves, you are showing that you don't love the wolves themselves, just their rules, and caring mainly about rules is associated with WAAC.

3/ Using Blood Angels parts in a Flesh Tearers army is fine, despite having CODEX BLOOD ANGELS on the front cover, and the army is not representitive but 'Models must use the Rules etc presented'.

You might have something here if the Flesh Tearers where an Ultramarine successor.A better example would be something like:

White Consuls have White Consul imagery, White Scar colours and yet play like Ultramarines

And the answer is that the White Consuls are largely a Codex Chapter. They have their own Identity (imagery), colors don't matter and play like they follow Guillimen's teachings. Which happen to be what the Ultramarines are famous for.

4/ Should a player take Vulkan and Sigurius in the same army, which one would be the correct colour scheme to be a fair player, and which would make them a WAAC player?.

Because Codex Space Marines cover so many chapters it states right in the book that you can use the special characters in any chapter you want. This is opposed to say Blood Angels or Dark Angels who only represent a handfull of successors. Even more so with Black Templars and Space Wolves that don't have any. Codex Space Marines was ment to cover the other 90% of Space marine armies not covered by the other books.

[Wishing]

So these are answers, just not necessarily the right ones.

The fact that I wrote "I've got some suggested answers" should hopefully have indicated that I was just presenting my opinion, just like you are just presenting yours.

[yabbadabba]

The fact that I wrote "I've got some suggested answers" should hopefully have indicated that I was just presenting my opinion, just like you are just presenting yours.

Which is why I disagreed with them and posted as such.

[Egaeus]

Unless of course you prefer the old fashioned Space Wolf image of regular marines in power armour. Or its a successor chapter. Or its a chapter that plays like SWs but doesn't look like them, your own chapter in other words.

Not sure what you were intending to convey with this post, as I don't think anyone has had any particular issues with "Successor Chapters" or even "Alternate Chapters" for armies like Space Wolves and Black Templars who don't have any specific successors.

And perhaps that is an important idea to convey...with the huge space available for one to come up with their own unique Chapter that can use whatever rules one wishes because they aren't associated with any particular ruleset people do still choose to paint their models as an "established" chapter. As I understand it this was what Wishing's comment on "loving the Wolves" was all about...I don't think it really detracts if one says "I like the Space Wolf background and play style but don't really care for their colour scheme so I'm going to use my own". Which to me is still fundamentally different than painting an army in a specific, distinct scheme that people will recognize and then claiming they are a different army. Does it completely ruin the game for me? No, but it is an annoyance that makes one suspect the player's motives. Would I turn down such a game? Probably not, although it would very much depend on the situation.