So then combining shades, washes and dry, you sure can have way more than 145 combinations, for sureOriginally Posted by Clarkson
So then combining shades, washes and dry, you sure can have way more than 145 combinations, for sure
The difference is that you can take codex Space Marines and make a fluffy Salamander army. You can arguably do the same for Blood Angels (Losing Death Company) and Dark Angels. Slight tweeks to vanillafy their rules but can be done. This differs from Space Wolves and Black Templars. In that codex Space Marines does not have options to field some of their core units.
Grey Hunter: If codex SM had an option to field a second Assult shooting weapon and CCWs. Then it would be fine to have non-counter attacking/acute sences Grey Hunters.
Blood Claws: If codex Space marines had options to give scouts power armor and an additional option for bikes, jump packs and allow up to 15 per unit. Then it would be fine to field non-headstrong bezerk charging Blood Claws.
Wolf Guard: If Codex Space Marines had an option to field mixed power armor/terminator honor guard/vets it would be fine. Just fluff the vet sgts in squads to be wolf guard.
Everything else can be taken and just fluffed to be count as where needed. It's not the special rules that makes Space Wolves Space Wolves. It's how the army is composed. Which cannot be done using the Space Marine codex without major changes and changes that will lead to others using those options to off balance this new codex. You would also have to give SWs their own section for the fluff of each unit because it's all different then what every other chapter has.
You can look at Black Templars and see many of the same things. Units that make up the core of the army not being available. Then you have armies where a small option that's not availible. Like Iron Hands and Terminator sgts. Sure they can't take them but is that really what make the Iron Hands Iron Hands. The answer is no. You can make a perfectly fluffy IH army without a single terminator in it. With Salamanders it's even more nitpicky. You don't really have anything different except not having a minus to a stat. Everything else just kind of fades into the back. "I can't have Artificer armour on my sgts". So what, you don't need a special rule to allow you do it. It's just that their Artificer armour is not as good as the Artificer armour worn by others. Still way better then normal armor but better enough for a stat change.
Just to join in again here, WD197 does not include any fluff on Salamanders, but rather has a painting article on creating a crusade army to paint all your squads in different colours. The article starts with the original scheme for the White Panthers which had won a design a chapter competition. Apart from mentioning the names of chapters and listing many names to create your own, there is very little. In fact the only way Salamanders is mentioned is the suggestion of taking melta and flamer weapons as your options to make the list themed - nothing that any other chapter could not do. This was halfway through 2nd edition, and in all codex books, the stats and rules of all basic marines were the same except for space wolves.
My Warhammer painting log (High Elves, Vampires, Night Goblins, Skaven and Chaos Warriors: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...11#post4856611
My 40k painting log (Blood Angels, Orks, Tyranids and Eldar: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...11#post5214911
Something had been bugging me all day since I posted last.
Lexi is incorrect about the issue in question where the second printing of the Salamanders IA article was. it was not #248, but issue # 273 that it was printed the second time. Issue 248 includes them in a IA style drawing as one of the participants in the Armageddon war. It does not include the IA article. I'm still tracking down the exact issue, but I can say for sure it was pre # 248.
I have a lot of White Dwarfs to go through, so it is taking some time.
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.
Waaagh! Gutzag - my first 40K Plog
There's an Index Astartes article on the Salamanders in issue 249, if that helps.
Went and checked after reading your post. No joy there. IA article is the Making of a Space Marine and Armageddon Ork Tribes. No Sallies.
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.
Waaagh! Gutzag - my first 40K Plog
Fair enough like I said I was basing it on a summary from a google search, Honestly though I don't think it matters to much if the fluff is made to justify a rule, or used to justify one. So I don't see any issues with someone feeling like sallies should be I3 for example.
By that same token, you don't have to have Scouts in power armour in order to make a Space Wolf army. It is all very arbitrary and just made up as GW goes along. Which is fine with me. That is why I have no problem with codex hopping.
“The unreal is more powerful than the real, because nothing is as perfect as you can imagine it. Because its only intangible ideas, concepts, beliefs, fantasies that last. Stone crumbles. Wood rots. People, well, they die. But things as fragile as a thought, a dream, a legend, they can go on and on.”
Chuck Palahniuk
You can't lose Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Wolf Guard though. And you still have to have a fluff section dedicated to them if you rolled them into codex SM. Not to mention that I gave away everything that is "Wolfy". So those changes are in addition to things like BA losing Death Company.
For example when Tempus Fugitives did their Age of the Emperor expansion. Instead of having SWs use the "Legion" entires. They use codex SW instead. And to be honest it would be easier to use codex CSM to make a SW army then normal marines.
The thing is the current versions of these units are even slightly different then their previous (3rd edition mini-dex) version...having a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is a brand-new thing for Space Wolves (they had True Grit and only two basic weapons). They couldn't field two special weapons in the previous version either. So it does seem very much that they are getting special rules merely for the sake of getting special rules.
And I would point out that these sorts of things would still be fairly simple swaps with some kind of "Trait"-style system, which would allow one to put all Marine armies in one book.
The only reason such units are different is that GW decided they wanted them to be different...I don't see any significant difference in this and just having Grey Hunters be Tactical Marines and the Scouts in a Space Wolf army happen to be called "Blood Claws" (although I will grant that Blood Claws are significantly different than true Wolf Scouts). So it's fundamentally a perception of whether special rules are necessary to distinguish units/armies or whether it can be done simply by theming a list. So I would suspect that if GW decided to make a "proper" Salamanders Codex they would create additional differences to set them apart from normal Marines, whether these differences have appeared in fluff before or whether they cut them from whole cloth.
In second edition Space Wolves Grey Hunters had the same range of assault weapon options as an assault squad.
Ten Grey Hunters with hand flamers could be fun.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian
In the 3rd ed book Grey Hunters could have 2XPower weapons/fist+2XPlasma Pistols+Special weapon. They also came stock with bolt pistol and CCW, having to buy bolters. Giving them Bolter,bolt pistol and CCW is going back to 2nd ed and there every model in the unit could be equiped with special cc weapons and pistols. The current wargear selection is the most limited the Grey Hunters have had in a codex so far.
Blood Claws = Scouts called Blood Claws would be removing one of the defining charateristics of the Space Wolves. And that is that they do not follow the codex astartes at all. Wolf Scouts = Scouts is fine but Blood Claws as scouts is a no go.
And not having Terminator Sergeants lead the Tactical Squads. Not having a special rule for massive amounts of Bionics. Not having rules to have a Dread as an HQ choice is removing all the defining characteristics of the Iron Hands. They don't even organize themselves according to the Codex.
I'm not saying that the Iron Hands deserve their own book more than anyone else, or even that they should have one at all. I am making the argument that we can come up with reasons for almost every chapter as to why they should have their own book with their own special units and special rules. As I said before, it is totally arbitrary by GW. It is for this reason that I don't care about codex hopping. If GW is going to arbitrarily change rules and fluff in order to justify more marine books, I see no reason why players should not take advantage of it. For all we know, the next Marine book could have Apothecaries as a 3 for 1 elite choice that give FNP to any unit within 6", similar to the Blood Angels. Definitely not outside the realm of possibility. So why worry about someone using BA to represent some other chapter?
“The unreal is more powerful than the real, because nothing is as perfect as you can imagine it. Because its only intangible ideas, concepts, beliefs, fantasies that last. Stone crumbles. Wood rots. People, well, they die. But things as fragile as a thought, a dream, a legend, they can go on and on.”
Chuck Palahniuk
It really isn't that big a deal, but to me it is like taking an Imperial army and saying "all these guys with Flamers really have Meltaguns and all these guys with Missile Launchers actually have Lascannons" (assuming in this situation that you only use flamers and missile launchers as these substitutions). While it's completely consistent it's still an extra something to have to remember and if one is used to looking at the model and thinking "that guy armed with a flamer actually has a flamer and not something else".
The thing is I can see scenarios where people may like the scheme of one army but the rules of another, but I would generally assume that they would do something to make their army distinctive...that is, if one like the Blood Angels colours but the Space Wolves rules and wanted to do a "Blood Wolves" army that said army wouldn't look just like a "normal" Blood Angels army.
And it occurs to me now that I know I've been saying they could do one big Marine Codex but there would probably still have to be some distinct delineation between "codex" and "non-Codex" chapters...as I really wouldn't expect Ultramarines to start fielding units like Blood Claws or Death Company.
The weapons would actually bother me much more than the paint scheme tbh, I wouldn't really care that much granted most of my friends have their own chapters (even my wolves don't look quite right because I think their armour is too bright so mine is much darker). My main problem with this issue, is that a lot of people that are making count-as armies and going that extra mile as far painting and fluff, who get the WAAC label thrown at them.
One marine dex is a bad ideal IMO. GW I think to a degree depends on having a marine waves, and with one book you would over half the players fielding very similiar armies.
Since we have moved into "one marine codex" territory, my view is that one marine codex would be great, because I don't think one faction getting huge amounts of focus is particularly well designed in terms of background. Most miniature games spread their focus equally among many factions, because it makes for the healthiest game environment. However, if this were to be reality in 40k (in a fictional world where shareholders and finances did not exist), people would have to let go of this idea that non-codex chapters would still exist. One codex means one army list, just like every other faction only has one army list. Marines can have non-codex chapter rules when orks have special clan rules and eldar have special craftworld rules. If we strive for a balanced focus, then no special treatment for marines would mean a roll back to early rogue trader, when marines were on the cover of the rulebook, but didn't have more rules than anyone else.
Bionics: Does not exist anymore as it did. But they did not have extra bionics. They cost 1/2 as much.
Iron Fathers: Basically a Master of the Forge with a 4++ save. Can even come with servitors as a squad. Or you can use a counts-as Chaplain to be close enough.
Venerable Dreadnought:Still exist as an elite or HS choice with Master of the Forge. Having it as an HQ choice does not matter because there is no difference between an elite and HQ choice beside where it was on the FOC.
Terminator Sgts: This was an option not a requirement. So not a requirement for the army at all. Just a little flavor.
The limit for units availble to the army: You can still follow that list for which units can be taken. There just are not rules limiting you only to those.
In short the Identity of the Iron Hands is their belief in "Machine>Flesh". And it's something that can be demonstrated using codex Space Marines and conversions. You don't need a completely different set of rules that didn't even exist when they had their own rules.
However an army where one of their main defining features is the idea that they don't follow the rules all other marines do. It's a lot harder to force fit them into a single codex. And doing so without removing their identity would mean that they would need their own option for nearly every army list entry. So like I said earlier. You can arguably roll all SMs into a single codex with the exceptions of Space Wolves and Black Templars.
No you are right, Bionics doesn't exist anymore. So how can you do an army that, as you said, "In short the Identity of the Iron Hands is their belief in "Machine>Flesh"." So where are the rules to reflect that? Why do Blood Angels and Space Wolves get their special rules to represent them?
Iron Hands don't get a special entry for Iron Fathers, but Blood Angels get their own special Apothecaries and Space Wolves get their own unique HQ entries?
If Iron Hands don't need to have a Dread as an HQ choice, why do the Space Wolves need to have extra HQ slots to be special?
Terminator Sgts leading tac squads is one of the defining things of the Iron Hands. Saying that they don't need them to represent an Iron Hands army is like saying you don't need to have Death Company or Blood Claws. Or that Grey Hunters don't need to be different to Tactical Squads.
The Iron Hands are not even remotely organized as a Codex Chapter. They don't even have a Chapter Master.
“The unreal is more powerful than the real, because nothing is as perfect as you can imagine it. Because its only intangible ideas, concepts, beliefs, fantasies that last. Stone crumbles. Wood rots. People, well, they die. But things as fragile as a thought, a dream, a legend, they can go on and on.”
Chuck Palahniuk
In short they don't. That's one of the rules that are different just to be different. Just like Blood Angels don't need to have a Death Company. You can take out all special rules that make SW different and they are still not the same as codex chapters. You have to also change their non-special rules as well (like weapon options, some stats and normal gear). But after you have changed that you have effectively changed their entire codex.
Because they are. It's like saying why is an assult squad different from a tactical squad. It's the same as why is a Crusader Squad different from a tactical squad. Different kit and battlefield role. It's that simple they are different because they are different. Grey Hunters are a hybrid assult/tact squad and neither one of those can define them. Without major changes to said entry.
Or would you say that every basic MEQ should be rolled into a single FOC slot all the options. Hey a devastator squad is just a tactical squad with extra heavy weapons. Why do they deserve their own entry in the FOC??? And Terminators are just Marines with Terminator armor on. Why don't we just make terminator armor an option for Tactical squads and go back to Terminator armor grants +1 attack.
There is a point when vanillifying becomes complety changing. Iron Hands lost less then 1/2 a page of rules to make them fit into codex SM. It takes more changing but you can still arguably do it with BA and DA. But SW need a complete rewrite of almost every entry with marines in it to make them fit.
Actually a while back when there was a "One Marine Dex" thread I actually started writing up a homebrew Codex based on this idea. Bascially you have two entries: Scouts (because they do have a different statline than Marines) and Marine Squad. Basically from there their role is dependent on the gear you give them. It's actually a bit looser than the current dex (for example, everyone could have Meltabombs if you want to pay for them and I allow for two "special" weapons instead of one special and one heavy). I hadn't gotten into Vehicles yet (although that will be very similar, since you have limited chassis). I was actually working on it a bit more earlier, as it is very much a "work in progress" and something I'm doing merely for my own enjoyment. Although intiailly meant for vanilla Marines I also started playing with ideas of how to incorporate the other books into such a structure.
Edit: Actually, gear does shift their FOC placement...Jump Packs or Bikes make them FA, making them Vets makes them Elites, giving them extra heavy weapons makes them Heavy Support. I am also playing with the idea of simply charging a few more points to keep them in the Troops slot, so you could make Bike/Assault/Terminator armies without having to resort to special characters while still paying a price for the flexibility.
Last edited by Egaeus; 16-05-2012 at 03:23.
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