Marine Paradox

[Egaeus]

Super codex would require too many FOC shifts, ie blood angels need assault squads as troops, vanilla have as fast....
Enter special character spam to get death company troops, assualt troops and Mr I give stubborn to the army....

Honestly I don't think there would be that many shifts...in most cases it's either a matter of a unit being "Troops" or "Not Troops" and those situations where "Not Troops" can become Troops. I suppose one could get really crazy and do things like moving Fast into Elites or Elites into Heavy or that sort of thing...

I stated earlier that I was toying with an "amalgamated Marine codex" where you start with only two "core" Troops units: Scouts or Tactical Marines, and it's all about the upgrades you give them where they end up in the FOC...make them Veterans with Terminator Armour and they become Elites, give them Bikes and they become Fast Attack, and so on (there are going to be a few odd units like Attack Bikes that I will have to figure out how to work in, but they will probably just be "fillers" for non-Troop slots). The thing I like about this system is that if you charge a different points cost you can keep them as Troops, allowing a great deal of flexibility to be built into the list without resorting to special characters and while still (potentially) charging a "premium" for the opportunity to use normally non-Troops units as Troops.

Of course with 6th edition nearly upon us (so I hear) I probably won't put much more work into it until I see what changes with the new rules.

[hazmiter]

Hmmm sorta like the old terminator honours upgrade for tactical sergeants.

[MetalGecko23]

I think Wyvirn is right, if you're doing it just to ge the better rules it's kind of cheating, Ultramarines have thier own Codex, it'd be like using Dark eldar models as Grey knights or something in my opinion. Unless of course you were just trialing the blood angels rules to see if you liked them

Last time I heard there was a Blood Angel, Dark Angel, Black Templar, Grey Knight, Space Wolf and Space Marine Codex. I've yet to see an Ultramarine Codex, its probably OP.

It's a good sign the guy on the other side of the table is a WAACer. Not perfect by any means, but all other things being equal, if I can choose amongst multiple unknown opponents, I'll pick one who doesn't show obvious signs of having just hopped to the latest & greatest Marine powerdex. Every once in a while I might do someone an injustice... but I'll save myself a lot of crappy games.

I play my Dark Angels with the Space Marine Codex. I feel that the Dark Angels are balanced towards the use of terminators and bikes. I don't want to use either of those but really like the look of Dark Angels and like playing the green ones. So I use the Space Marine Codex because it is better balanced with the battle company style I play. Am I WAAC?

It just comes from an understandable resentment of the fact that marine players have this option at all - players of other armies need to have a certain level of courage of their convictions in order to invest in that army, and by comparison having the option to change your rules like socks seems like a soft option, a cop out. It's more ambiguous than that, of course - you can't tar everyone who does it with the same brush, and there are plenty of perfectly reasonable and sporting reasons to do it. But I woud imagine that's where the basic idea that it's just not cricket comes from.

That is really just a moot complaint. You picked what you picked knowing the possible downsides. Why complain that somebody doesn't have the limitations you chose?

what about my "grey marines"? Or blue marines? Or red marines? red doesnt have to mean BA. I call mine the "War Angels" chapter. And no, they're not BA successors. the name comes from a cancelled video game. from my position, it the assumption you are going with is that what im playing must have a foothold in the fluff. they must have a story. they must represent something, and based on their story, they must be represented by a specific rules set. which is fair enough from the perspective of someone whose vision of the game is based on "story". but what if i just want to play the game? My War Angels are pretty much just a name. I dont want to give them a huge, engrossing story. Because what value does it have beyond me? Captain Badassius and his twenty legendary quests of doom mean nothing to a random opponent. they're just figments of my imagination, and ultimately have no place in "his" game. Which leaves me with plastic models, and the desire to play "the game". And as a vehicle for playing "the game", i see nothing wrong with using my well painted War Angels using whatever rules i feel like using at the time. after all, its just a game. its not real.

I enjoy painting and converting mostly these days. But because there is a game I can play with the models and get extra use out of my time and money I just tack on rules that best (to me) represent the models I went and painted. I might play Raven Wing with Blood Angels rules in the future......

[Metal Handkerchief]

That is really just a moot complaint. You picked what you picked knowing the possible downsides. Why complain that somebody doesn't have the limitations you chose?

Because the actual heroes who play Xenos instead of the tutorial army and breathe some actual life into the game should be rewarded, not punished.

Well maybe not rewarded. But it shouldn't be the variety-creating players who get punished.

[MetalGecko23]

Because the actual heroes who play Xenos instead of the tutorial army and breathe some actual life into the game should be rewarded, not punished.

Well maybe not rewarded. But it shouldn't be the variety-creating players who get punished.

What exactly is heroic about playing non-imperial....(as you specifically only state xenos)? Further more what is so tutorial about non-xenos? I can remember when Eldar were easy mode.

What is life breathing about xenos? As far as I can tell Imperials can add a wealth of variety to the game. Plus their sales is what is keeping life in the hobby.

An lastly how in the 7 hells are non-imperial players punished?? Explain that to me.

[yabbadabba]

What exactly is heroic about playing non-imperial....(as you specifically only state xenos)? Further more what is so tutorial about non-xenos? I can remember when Eldar were easy mode.

What is life breathing about xenos? As far as I can tell Imperials can add a wealth of variety to the game. Plus their sales is what is keeping life in the hobby.

An lastly how in the 7 hells are non-imperial players punished?? Explain that to me.

It's called prejudice and elitism. Unfortunately there is a bit of it about.

[wyvirn]

What exactly is heroic about playing non-imperial....(as you specifically only state xenos)? Further more what is so tutorial about non-xenos? I can remember when Eldar were easy mode.

What is life breathing about xenos? As far as I can tell Imperials can add a wealth of variety to the game. Plus their sales is what is keeping life in the hobby.

An lastly how in the 7 hells are non-imperial players punished?? Explain that to me.

All Imperial factions get access to halfway decent fliers, either directly or through allies. And the get at least half of the armies in the Imperial Armor book. And they are the basis for all of the terrain put out by GW (Honesty, I can't think of a xenos terrain piece except for those ork barricades from a couple of years ago)

I agree that GW makes an extremely large part of their profit from the imperial factions, but right now I feel they are alienating their non-imperial players, no pun intended.

[MetalGecko23]

All Imperial factions get access to halfway decent fliers, either directly or through allies. And the get at least half of the armies in the Imperial Armor book. And they are the basis for all of the terrain put out by GW (Honesty, I can't think of a xenos terrain piece except for those ork barricades from a couple of years ago)

I agree that GW makes an extremely large part of their profit from the imperial factions, but right now I feel they are alienating their non-imperial players, no pun intended.

If allies are counted then pretty much every faction has access to fliers except Tyranids. With Necrons pretty much setting the standard on fliers. Also I reality a fair few of the xeno books are before the fliers. Now If you go with Forge World then everybody has access to good fliers.

To be honest with the books being called Imperial Amour...expecting Imperials to not be in them is wishful thinking at best. It is poop for those that don't like Imperials but it is what it is. A side company that wanted to make Imperial stuff that has branched out to xeno stuff.

I don't think they are at all. The amazing Necron and Dark Eldar ranges have had in my eyes way more effort put into them then all the Imperial factions combined. Heck the Ork range is awesome too...plus they keep getting additions (like one of two factions with a super heavy). I feel that the alienating that individuals feel is mostly self inflicted.

[Lester]

Because the actual heroes who play Xenos instead of the tutorial army and breathe some actual life into the game should be rewarded, not punished.

Well maybe not rewarded. But it shouldn't be the variety-creating players who get punished.

The vast amount of the 40k universe is filled with Imperium, it stands to reason that the game armies reflect this.
I hate people who stand on a high horse because they have to be a special snowflake and play Xenos just to look down on non-Xeno players.

[IcedCrow]

For me it's an OCD thing. I have never complained vocally to someone doing this though I have played against it many times.

If I see a blue marine with an ultramarine icon on its shoulder, I expect that I'm fighting Ultramarines because the aesthetics mean something to me. Whipping out Codex: Other Space marine and using those rules breaks my OCD because I'm no longer fighting an ultramarine, I'm fighting Codex: Other Space Marine painted like an ultra marine. This may or may not have anything to do with WAAC, and really one can be just as WAAC fielding grey knights as grey knights so that's not my issue... mine is mostly a visual thing and how it connects the dots in my own brain.

I dearly wish that there was a Codex: Space Marines similar to the Horus Heresy book, where the marines got generic rules and list and then each chapter had a page of its own special rules.

[Wishing]

If I see a blue marine with an ultramarine icon on its shoulder, I expect that I'm fighting Ultramarines because the aesthetics mean something to me. Whipping out Codex: Other Space marine and using those rules breaks my OCD because I'm no longer fighting an ultramarine, I'm fighting Codex: Other Space Marine painted like an ultra marine. This may or may not have anything to do with WAAC, and really one can be just as WAAC fielding grey knights as grey knights so that's not my issue... mine is mostly a visual thing and how it connects the dots in my own brain.

I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't even call it an OCD thing, it's just a suspension of disbelief thing really. If you let your mind accept the reality that GW's 40K books present, which is that a blood angel attired marine model uses the blood angel rules, then when someone uses a blood angel attired marine model with some other set of rules, it knocks you out of the aesthetics and theme of the fictional world and into the "real" world where this is all made up and arbitrary and we can all play with empty bases if we want. You might describe it as varying levels of background coherency - not technical coherence, but visual, aesthetic coherence between looks displayed and rules used.

[Metal Handkerchief]

The vast amount of the 40k universe is filled with Imperium, it stands to reason that the game armies reflect this.
I hate people who stand on a high horse because they have to be a special snowflake and play Xenos just to look down on non-Xeno players.

Actually, Space Marines are the least numerous fighting forces in the entire 40K universe, and by a LARGE margin. Thus, the fact that there are fifteen thousand more space marine miniatures hitting tabletops than say, Tyranid ones, at any given moment in time in the actual real world of gaming, should tell anyone with organic matter above the neck that something is wrong.

[MetalGecko23]

Actually, Space Marines are the least numerous fighting forces in the entire 40K universe, and by a LARGE margin. Thus, the fact that there are fifteen thousand more space marine miniatures hitting tabletops than say, Tyranid ones, at any given moment in time in the actual real world of gaming, should tell anyone with organic matter above the neck that something is wrong.

So it is now a matter of intelligence..
The more intelligent you are the more likely you will play with the xeno toys then the space marine ones....interesting.

I must not have any organic material above my neck because I can't for the life of me figure out what the problem is. Now as a Tau and Necron player I should be complaining like you but I don't so there must be something wrong with me right?

[yabbadabba]

Actually, Space Marines are the least numerous fighting forces in the entire 40K universe, and by a LARGE margin. Thus, the fact that there are fifteen thousand more space marine miniatures hitting tabletops than say, Tyranid ones, at any given moment in time in the actual real world of gaming, should tell anyone with organic matter above the neck that something is wrong.

I think comments like this should tell our community that something is wrong.

[Shamana]

What exactly is heroic about playing non-imperial....(as you specifically only state xenos)? Further more what is so tutorial about non-xenos? I can remember when Eldar were easy mode.

I am told there was such a time. It definitely doesn't seem that way atm. Plus, with the intro box always featuring marines of some sort it shouldn't be surprising that marines are the army of choice of many new players, and GW tailors the rules about them. Generally few, resilient models, few uses of the more obscure rules... why wouldn't they be the beginner's army, and why wouldn't GW factor that in their design?

What is life breathing about xenos? As far as I can tell Imperials can add a wealth of variety to the game. Plus their sales is what is keeping life in the hobby.

I think that might have to do with the lot of frequent updates and attention. Space marines and the Imperium are the designated protagonist, so to speak, and there are a lot more ways to get an army started cheap and easy such as more packs, starters, etc. That said, I'm not so sure just how much money GW is getting from what army and what is keeping their company budget. Would their company bottom line be that much worse if there were half the 4-stat, 3+ armies and the remaining attention (and updates) went into orks, chaos, and nids? I'll pass on the Eldar, I might be biased there .

As for Imperials adding variety - compared to no army release at all, perhaps, but compared to other codices? Just look at how many marine codices there are - despite their differences, they tend to share a lot of things in common, right down to vehicles whose only difference is how much each author costed the unit and upgrades due to the developing balance and their own perception. I'd actually go out and state that even CSM aren't as different from other marines are marines are from the guard or nearly any xenos army. Orks and tyrannids offer options to swarm the board, Eldar of varying spikiness are fewer, but a lot more fragile than marines and require more positioning and maneuvering, Tau tend to be a specialized shooting army that is imo more like a lower numbers IG, Necrons can offer swarm or specialized mech options.

[Grocklock]

I personally don't have an issue with people painting there marines different colours. So say blue blood angels. Or red black Templars. It's only when the following week you have decided they are now dark angels. Then the next week there grey knights.

[BrainFireBob]

I am told there was such a time. It definitely doesn't seem that way atm. Plus, with the intro box always featuring marines of some sort it shouldn't be surprising that marines are the army of choice of many new players, and GW tailors the rules about them. Generally few, resilient models, few uses of the more obscure rules... why wouldn't they be the beginner's army, and why wouldn't GW factor that in their design?



I think that might have to do with the lot of frequent updates and attention. Space marines and the Imperium are the designated protagonist, so to speak, and there are a lot more ways to get an army started cheap and easy such as more packs, starters, etc. That said, I'm not so sure just how much money GW is getting from what army and what is keeping their company budget. Would their company bottom line be that much worse if there were half the 4-stat, 3+ armies and the remaining attention (and updates) went into orks, chaos, and nids? I'll pass on the Eldar, I might be biased there .

As for Imperials adding variety - compared to no army release at all, perhaps, but compared to other codices? Just look at how many marine codices there are - despite their differences, they tend to share a lot of things in common, right down to vehicles whose only difference is how much each author costed the unit and upgrades due to the developing balance and their own perception. I'd actually go out and state that even CSM aren't as different from other marines are marines are from the guard or nearly any xenos army. Orks and tyrannids offer options to swarm the board, Eldar of varying spikiness are fewer, but a lot more fragile than marines and require more positioning and maneuvering, Tau tend to be a specialized shooting army that is imo more like a lower numbers IG, Necrons can offer swarm or specialized mech options.

I know this part. This is where it devolves into "all those Marine releases pay for the less popular armies to get new models and kits."

"Nu-uh! Marines are only more popular because they're supported more!"

"When the Tactical Box alone is something like 40% of GW's earnings?"

"What!? That's just support"

"Or maybe geeks like genetically engineered super-soldiers more than slow gundam pilots, space elves, or walking fungi, before they really get into the background. Especially since, with a low model count, they're relatively cheap."

"That's not fair! Everything that's not marines is cool because marines are popular within a vary small subculture that I associate in to the extant that it makes me a special snowflake to not play them!"

Did I get the whole thing right?

EDIT: This is not to pick on the guy I posted, but this is treading dangerously close to an old, old argument.

If you want to talk about army distinctiveness, then I'd argue if you look critically at 40K, there's not all that much room for distinctiveness within the level of simplification required by their level of abstraction- again, an old argument.

[Israfael]

I know this part. This is where it devolves into "all those Marine releases pay for the less popular armies to get new models and kits."

"Nu-uh! Marines are only more popular because they're supported more!"

"When the Tactical Box alone is something like 40% of GW's earnings?"

"What!? That's just support"

"Or maybe geeks like genetically engineered super-soldiers more than slow gundam pilots, space elves, or walking fungi, before they really get into the background. Especially since, with a low model count, they're relatively cheap."

"That's not fair! Everything that's not marines is cool because marines are popular within a vary small subculture that I associate in to the extant that it makes me a special snowflake to not play them!"

Did I get the whole thing right?

Indeed you did, good sir. You've saved this thread several pages worth of posts.

[Shamana]

Did I get the whole thing right?

Well, except for the argument supposedly focusing about how much variety Imperial codices add, sure . I'm not denying that Marine sales are important to GW (though I'd like to know just where the tactical sales factoid and the rest are coming from), but I take exception at arguments about how having 6 Imperial marine codices (GK included) can be so great for variety.

As for the rest, you can argue that, and it is a valid argument, though I think the variety can be in the areas of aesthetics as well as rules. And even if there are less (distinct) armies, is that necessarily wrong? If there were less and more often updated factions (i.e. everyone gets an update once per edition), that need not negatively impact GW's bottom line.

To get back at the original post, I don't really have a problem with proxying, or saying that these marines use those marine rules. I can find it a bit absurd at times, but I'd rather play a good, nice player whose Dark Angels play by the SM codex than a smarmy, annoying player, even if his/her models are the height of WYSIWYG.

[Chivs]

Honest Question, without any judgement, to those for whom 'Blue Blood Angels' and their ilk stretches credibility or is otherwise not acceptable: Is it acceptable for a Blood Angel or Dark Angel player to use Codex: Space Marines? Would this also stretch credibility?