I've not once mentioned points costs, only rule changes, as for how those rule changes would affect points costs i realise that extensive play testing is required to determine that.
I've not once mentioned points costs, only rule changes, as for how those rule changes would affect points costs i realise that extensive play testing is required to determine that.
Sometimes, people see what they want to see. Sometimes don't see what they don't want to...
Ever considered that a points change could be the best solution? As opposed to say, heaping on more Special Rules? Or stat escalation?I love threads like this. People always criticise The writers at GW for not writing decent rules but given the chance themselves, nobody can come up with anything more original than "make unit X cost 1pt more/less".
Challenge Accepted!Originally Posted by McBoner
Note: With a removal of SoA (ASF)
1. Spearmen/ LSG receive Heavy Armour as Standard. Archers start with no armour and can buy light for 1 ppm
2. Weapon Training. High Elves always benefit from the parry rule, regardless of armament or being mounted (note, flank charge still gets rid of it). For example, a unit of swordmasters would have a 5+, 6++ in combat if only engaged to the front. A unit of Dragon Princes would have a 2+, 6++ in the same situation and so on.
3. Lion Cloaks give +1 AS (+2 vs. shooting) and can be taken by characters as part of mundane equipment
4. RBT's gain a third crewman, Volley changed to D3 hits per rank of the enemy (D6 vs. hordes) at S4 for a slight points drop (of 5 to 10 points)
5. Swordmasters have ASF and Great Weapons (i.e. strike in initiative order) as well as MR (1)
6. Shadow Warriors receive AHW and strider
7. Silver Helms moved to core
8. Sea Guard have a Halberd Option
9. Phoenix Guard moved to rare, retain their 4++ and ASF.
10. All elven units may take a magic banner (core = 25 point limit, special/ rare = 50 points)
11. Archmages only ld 8
12. Dragons
- Sun Dragon: S3 breath weapon, 4+ scaly skin, +1 WS, +1 S to current, 210 to 230 points
- Moon Dragon: S4 breath weapon, 3+ scaly skin, +1 S, LVL 1 wizard (high magic or fire?), 300 to 330 points
- Star Dragon: S5 breath weapon, 2+ scaly skin, +1 S, LVL 2 wizard (still not sure of lore, maybe rulebook...), 400 points +
- I 4 for all
13. Dragons can be taken as rare (perhaps not star...)
14. Dragons can be taken as rare with a Dragon Prince on board for +15 or so points
15. Dragon Princes can ride on younger Dragons. maybe a S2 breath weapon, S5, barded, flyer, 3 wounds, I4, 3A, WS 4. Special
16. Lion chariot gains a point of toughness
17. Flying magic wagon, gives a buff to any unit within 6" depending on what lore of magic you align it to (pay to choose which one). In rare. Effects as follows:
- High: increase parry save by 1 (to a 5+)
- Fire: flaming attacks. If unit already has these, Multiple wounds (2)
- Life: Strider, regen (5+)
- Metal: +1 AS and the AP rule
- Beasts: +1 S
- Heavens: reroll ones to hit
- Light: ASF
- Shadow: Movement is doubled
- Death: For each wound inflicted by the unit, roll a D6. On a 6 a previously dead member of the unit is reutrned to life. Characters heal their own wounds.
Costing
Lords and Heroes
Princes start at 110 - 140
Archmage at 220. Option to take a wizards chamber (other kit with buffmobile). increases casting by +2 and grants loremaster. 150+ points
Noble at 60 - 70
Mage at 95
Dragon Mage 330
Core
Archers at 9 ppm, with LA at +1 ppm
Spearmen at 9 or 10 ppm
LSG (with Spear and Shield) at 10ppm. Bows at +1 ppm, Halberds at +2 ppm.
Silver Helms at 17 ppm. Barding at +2ppm. Shields at +2 ppm.
Ellyrion Reavers at 14 ppm (with LA). +2 for spear. + 2 for bow
Special
Sword Masters at 14 ppm
White Lions at 14 ppm
Dragon Princes at 27 ppm
Shadow Warriors at 14 ppm
Tiranoc Chariot at 75 ppm. Units of 1 to 3.
Drake Riders at 75 ppm. Units of 3+
Rare
Phoenix Guard at 14 ppm. Units of 5 to 30
Lion Chariot at 120 ppm. Units of 1 to 3
RBT at 90 ppm
Great Eagle at 50 ppm
Unridden Dragons at 210, 300 or 400 depending on level
Ridden Dragons at 210, 300 or 400 + 15 points. Unit of 1+
Buffmobile.
Magic Items
Big Sword of Smashing - ???
Armour of Resilience: Heavy Armour. Bearer can never be wounded on better than a 5+ unless due to a weapon effect (runefangs for example) - 35 points
Armour of Caledor: Heavy Armour. +1 Save, 2++ vs. Flaming attacks. 50 points
Temakador's Gauntlets: As now, but 4++ save vs. s4 or higher. 40 points
Banner of Sorcery: as now
Banner of the World Dragon: as now
Book of Hoeth: +2 Power Dice and +1 to cast. 100 points
Seerwood Staff: same as now. 25 points.
Rational:
- The combination of Heavy Armour on core units and the use of the parry rule was to add some defensive properties to the army as a whole, without a whole smack of special rule cluttering up the place. Also fits in with the whole 'well trained and elite' fluff wise. I felt this fitted better than say "fight in extra ranks" as I have seen presented earlier somewhere, due to the other rule requiring a ridiculous amount of ranks to be useful for hordes and therefore unsuited to a elite army (and imagine the target that would be painted on White Lions with fight in extra ranks. Dwellers Ahoy!). As such, High Elves would be the more defensive, yet still hitty Elves, Dark Elves the hitty and really fragile elves and Wood Elves could be the shooty and sneaky elves once they are finally done.
- Dragons I wanted to make a bit more powerful to represent their nature as ancient and deadly. The slight buffs were meant to represent this (and the I buffs to prevent a notorious Sun from wacking a 400 point Star Dragon) and were generally compensated with a price rise. The Sun Dragon was the exception to this due to its lower number of wounds and the damaging effects of step up and steadfast on modern monsters. The more slots that can now be allocated to dragons was to reinforce High Elves as the 'dragon army' and get some more of the beasties on the table. Fly my pretties!
- Indeed a lot of things were moved to rare, including the now staple of a buffmobile. This was done to force some choices in this slot for the HE player as well as accurately represent the commonality of certain troop types. This second reason is also why PG have a unit cap (though are cheaper to compensate somewhat for this and the rare slot).
- Focus of magic support, with magic banners bleeding out of the HE players wazoo. This and the buffmobile revolving around the winds is to show the high magic dependance of the HE force without hamstringing the player into using it.
- For combat heroes, I tried to make them more viable through cost, LD (you want ld 10? take a prince) and survivability (lion cloaks, parry and magic items).
Please bear in mind my prospective points costs are very rough and that these are just a collection of some ideas I've had.
Thoughts?
Last edited by Athlan na Dyr; 29-04-2012 at 02:06.
Not to be a negative Nancy, but I pretty much disliked almost everything in the post after the words "Challenge Accepted!"
6 & 7 weren't bad.
Giving them always Parry is poop.
Taking away ASF, High Elves need to drop in cost by like .... a quarter or third or more. They already drop like flies, which is why 90% of all armies include either a huge block of WL's or PG.
15pt elites better be closer to 11, if they are just going to swing in, miss and then get mowed down.
Meh I dunno, I just dislike almost everything ya posted, but its my opinion only, its cool that you obviously love yer elfs!
Eh, not a problem. The whole idea of posting it was to get some feedback, both negative and positive.
Indeed, would you mind giving a little more detail as to why you didn't like it (fluff, feels underwhelming for tabletop performance, don't know but it just doesn't sit right...)
Cheers for the reply
My own idea's
ASF - Toss it. Instead give all of the High Elves 1+ Initiative. That way they are still faster then their Elfy breathren, but loose their rerolls. As everyone else has said, leave it for Swordmasters. Lower cost army wide as a result.
White Lion Bodyguard - A new character. For an extra, say 90 points, any of your characters on foot can be paired with a White Lion Bodyguard character. This character would be given two attacks, two wounds, and a 5+ ward save. HOWEVER, so long as he is alive and place in base contact with his assigned character, the character he is defending is given a 2+ Ward Save (The bodyguard is protecting im) untill the White Lion Bodyguard is killed first. It's fluffy and it would give a real defense option for High Elf Mages and BattleStandards. His leadership can't be confered onto the unit.
Bolt Thrower. I wouldn't say a mortar template, but a small template might be a good solution for bolt throwers as opposed to just lowering the cost. It would make them more effective and give them some much needed umph.
Without SoA H.e are the second most expensive army in the game after W.e -although they are already sitting nearby Beastmen, W.e, and Brets.
SoA isn't even that great, and we already pay through the nose for it, even on troops we don't want it on (archers) we don't have a choice. Giving a parry save as opposed to ASF would change the entire play style, rational and just exacerbate the problem that H.e currently have: T3 A.S +5 = Dead.
Obviously H.e's best defense is a (wicked) offense, killing troops before they get to strike, however (again obviously) step-up has made that a moot point as we cannot limit the amount of incoming attacks with just a parry save. Sure we could limit miniscule amount of the damage we would receive, but without rerolls to hit in combat the few attacks we can "muster" won't really do the aforementioned attack back limiting that would be done if we kept SoA.
Now grant it, if you remove SoA I have no problem with that, but it needs to be replaced by another or (multiple) other special rules that will either: a. increase the amount of attacks (why are S.M the only infantry unit that has more than 1 attack a model?? Give me access to frenzy, 2 hand weapons, or if not those then S4! S3 doesn't kill anything.
Give H.e the "Martial Prowness" special rule with everything -to compensate for missing with attacks- in addition to a point drop and ++6 parry, then you might be on to something. Also, the only rare choice that would ever be taken would be the chariot-mobiles, as they have really dumb effects, nothing a Dragon or Rbt could replace.
High Elves: Warhammer Fantasy on Hard Mode.
Jeffy the GREAT EAGLE'S Monster Slayed of the Day:
Warsphynix Got Great Eagle?
\m/___>.<___\m/
I need to go back to the drawing board methinks.
I sadi it earlier in my wall of text, but any comments on replacing SoA with removal of enemy stepping up in the first round of combat? That would emphasise the idea of your troops killing some of his, and reducing the amount of strikes delivered back as a defense. They need something to justify high points cost (as they should have that points cost, being an elite dying race) but SoA has been vastly overpriced as these days thanks to stepping up it is only of use against small enemy units. Reroll helps of course but feels tacked on and too simlar to DE mechanic.
Last edited by Von Wibble; 29-04-2012 at 09:45.
668 - the neighbour of the beast.
the thing about speed of asuryan, is that it seems to me even in 8th armies tend to have army-wide special rules, or at least group-wide within the army, depending of course. a blanket statement, but still
here are some examples:
choppas on orcs, animosity overall
undead rule for tomb kings and vampire counts (obvious i know since they are actually undead, but still you see what i mean)
ogres getting impact hits on the charge
so without commenting on whether or not SoA is good or bad, gw may decide that they need an armywide rule or two still
just food for thought
Just because the horse is dead is no reason to stop flogging it.
they see me trollin, they hatin
DESTINY IS CALLING!!! but beer is on the other line.....
So... as an army wide non-SoA rule... how about something like weapon mastercraft? Giving every HE weapon a +1 to wound would solve the str 3 problem the elves have.
With it archers would be useful even against T5 monsters, spearmen would be worth their points, etc... Not a choppa rule but something like it (it wouldn't affect AS but instead would work every turn), so... any thoughts?
Thanks to thr previous posts, somthing just occured to me that i hadn't seen suggested before(perhaps with good reason).
Perhaps SoA could be a rule like this:
The Elves of Ulthuan fight with great martial prowess, speed and tanacity.
As such the Elves resume their fighting posture before the lifeless bodies of their foes hit the ground.
How it plays, if the Elves have equal or higher(perhaps just higher) initiative, enemies slain do not gain the step up rule, this does not effect supporting attacks.
Other rules could flesh this out but, i think it might be an interesting rule to toy with and add somthing unique to the HE.
I cant imagine this ever happening.
to strong against armies with Low I values, and useless against armies with Good I
Sure, if that's the only rule change.
Lower I armies still have ranks and thus, steadfast, so it doesn't necessarily work exactly the same as 7th where you just break them off the table, they also have supporting attacks, and without the rerolls to hit, the HE aren't going to be wiping two ranks of enemies off every turn.
High/Higher I enemies are another ball game, but i return back to it not being the ONLY rule change.
A. The army book will take precedence in this situation. For example, a Sword Master would strike first with his great weapon. If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit".
I imagine a unit of spearmen being a horror to low I armies now. If they charge it they risk up to 4(5 if hoarded) ranks worth of attacks that can also reduce the attacks back to them
if they dont charge it still 3(4) ranks of attacks that can reduce the attacks back.
And still, High Elves would remain an expensive Elite Army, 500 points of Spear Elves SHOULD pose a threat, but saying that, also consume a chunk of the HE's list whilst maintaining the flaw of most hordes, being unwieldy with weaknesses to be exploited, ie, flanks, redirection, fed chaff, ignored etc. That horde still maintains T3 and there are many ranged elements which can reduce them to a bloody pulp upon the battlefield the same as it effects the current book.
One must remember, this is a Wishlist thread and no more, my own idea does not come where the entirety of the High Elf book remains the same with my one rule tacked on, but I do feel that it would restore the feel of 7th HE where ASF was put in place to allow the HE to compensate for their mediocre toughness and armor. The idea of High Elves being defensive does not have to entail massive armor and devastating war machines, and 7th HE with 7th RB captured that that in a simple yet elegant way.
High Elves. An ELITE Army. How should this be represented?
Few in number, unkillable with average to good damage output? Nope, I'd say that is Dwarf territory.
Few in number, do massive damage with low armor but make up for it in wounds? Ogres.
Lots of numbers... don't even need to say anymore, they're Elite and they're Elves, they are meant to me expensive and few in numbers.
Do good to excellent damage and minimize losses? I think THIS is what makes them elite, its mostly a question of HOW to make that represented in the 8th edition where rules like Step Up, Hordes and support attacks are present. Sure a ward save could be implemented but its hardly imaginative and i think my rule idea makes you pay for your survivability through fighting well than just having an extra save, although I am a fan of shield+spear=parry, higher toughness doesn't sit right, nor (to me) better armor saves.
This aspect I believe needs to be the first and foremost mechanic of the Army to be looked at, and from that point on rules adjusted as required.
Last edited by Sinaris; 30-04-2012 at 03:26.
I like this, but i think maybe something along the lines of enemies being able to attack in one less rank than they normally can. For example a unit of spearman are attack but dark elf warriors that are 5 wide, the warriors would normally get 10 attacks however since the HE spearman have the SoA rule they only get 5 attacks since they attack in one rank. This would work against enemy hordes as well.Thanks to thr previous posts, somthing just occured to me that i hadn't seen suggested before(perhaps with good reason).
Perhaps SoA could be a rule like this:
The Elves of Ulthuan fight with great martial prowess, speed and tanacity.
As such the Elves resume their fighting posture before the lifeless bodies of their foes hit the ground.
How it plays, if the Elves have equal or higher(perhaps just higher) initiative, enemies slain do not gain the step up rule, this does not effect supporting attacks.
Other rules could flesh this out but, i think it might be an interesting rule to toy with and add somthing unique to the HE.
Ah, so you mean it to effect Supporting attacks instead of Step Up? That's a good option on minimizing casualties too, although a little on the linear side of things, at least, IMO. Two aspects from my version I like is:
A) Emphasis on Initiative stat. Its part of our expensive price, so its only right for it to have more function, that said, you could easily put that on your version of it too making for the same emphasis.
B) It is not linear, only by actually killing the enemy are you gaining the benefits of Speed of Asuryan.
Example:
20 Spear Elves(4 ranks of 5) are attacked by 30 Savage Orcs with 2 choppas. The Elves, with their higher Initiative go first, without re-rolls my dice rolls netted me 6 wounds all said and done with Warpaint ward save.
Savage Orcs get to strike back now(they, for simplicity are 6 ranks of 5) with four Savage Orcs, and my rolls netted me 5 Elves slain. 15 remain standing for the next turn.
We now change this with Swordmasters, 7 of them vs the same Orcs, slaying 7 in my test roll, giving 3 Orcs to return the favor, taking down 3 Elves, 4 are standing for the next turn.
Moral is, you kill more, you live more and decisive surgical strikes which I imagine to be the HE Battle Doctrine are essential to the survival of your armies.
A. The army book will take precedence in this situation. For example, a Sword Master would strike first with his great weapon. If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit".
I totally get what you are saying, personally i think either way would be a nice addition instead of the current rule. Though i do think that if it was per guy killed then it should be a blanket rule not relying on initiative as the current SoA still gives always strike first against anyone.
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