Hi Athlan na Dyr.
Thank you for your feedback it is much appreciated. I'll reply to your replies in Aqua/Blue.
Originally Posted by Athlan na Dyr;6211476
[IMGhttp://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by Kurnous the Hunter http://www.warseer.com/forums/warsee...post-right.png
I'd prefer if you would help me
Okay here is what I would do:
All elven-kind move with what seems to be effortless grace and blinding quickness to those of other races. Combining swiftness of thought with cat like reflexes and near mystical senses, an elf in battle is capable of easily anticipating the movements of their enemy, making it easier to strike them, or avoid their comparatively clumsy blows.
All Elves ASF. 6+ ward save (Against all attacks)
A hard ward? Interesting...
My first thought was +1 to hit, -1 to hit for enemy, but this is way overpowered and would make Elven characters extremely effective. A 6+ ward is hardly game breaking or overpowered, and the Elves are still fragile, just a little less so.
Note: ASF and Great weapons cancel each other out. 6+ Ward stackable with Parry OR other ward saves.
Stackable ward saves? Interesting-er (though parry saves aren't exactly commonplace in a HE army). Suprised that you turned SoA into normal ASF rather than its current format, but seems logical from a simplicity perspective
You are dead right it was all about simplicity. I can also imagine how opposing players would feel quite "dirty" about elves not only attacking in initiative order with a giant great weapons, but then ASF & the re-rolls it usually gives! Also makes HE players think about how they are going to arm their characters! No more Great weapon being the easy choice!
The Citizen Levy of Ulthuan use their hundreds of years of training and innate discipline to perfect this form of fighting. Countless times the Elves of Ulthuan have stood against foes that heavily outnumber them, and have managed to drive them off.
A High Elf unit with this ability must declare that they are using the Shield wall formation at the beginning of a turn, and only if unengaged in combat. A unit in a Shield wall cannot march. Both the unit and any enemy engaged toward the front facing make no Supporting Attacks (Note that the Elf unit still uses it's second rank of spears). In addition the unit in Shieldwall formation adds +1 to it's armour save representing the extra protection afforded by the overlapping shields.
When calculating combat if the unit in Shield wall formation loses combat- discount the enemy rank bonus. If the Unit in Shield Wall formation still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the Shield Wall is broken.
Conversely if an enemy unit loses combat against a Shield wall - ignore the rank bonus of the unit in Shield wall formation. If the enemy unit still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the unit fights on.
Designer note: I'm not sure if the above could be worded better or is just too complicated. Another alternative would simply be to add parry if charged & all subsequent turns.The Shield Wall rule is designed with a few things in mind.
1. Emphasize the defensive nature of HE Spear levy.
2. Give Elves an "Anvil" that would lessen the attrition war with large blocks & Hordes (elves holding back the tide)
3. As Point 2 gives Elves the chance to counter attack by holding the line.
Not sure on the 'cannot march' thing. Maintaining an overlapping shield wall (what I'm assuming this rule is meant to represent) would be an utter pain in the **** if you had to move.
Also, from a rules perspective this seems kinda strange. It limits attacks in a non-linear fashion, adds +1 to armour and has some kinky stuff going on with rank bonus (which is only worked out after combat result is decided?). I must admit that I do like the idea behind it though.
If I were to change it (read; royally cock it up ), I'd make it;
'any infantry unit that is armed with shields may declare they are using this formation during the start of the player's own movement phase. This will last until the High Elf player's next turn. The unit cannot declare a normal move, though may still charge 2D6" (i.e. do not add movement to charge range). Also, the unit receives +1 AS, is stubborn and may parry regardless of what other weapons are being wielded along with their shields. Furthermore, the number of ranks your enemy can attack with is reduced by one, so normal infantry attack with one rank, horded infantry 2 and so on and so forth.
If however, the unit is defeated in combat, the shieldwall rule ends until it can be declared in the next HE movement phase. Also, should the unit break from combat, they roll 3D6 and discard the highest'
To my mind that reads a lot easier and disregards the wierd rank thingy for a simple 'stubborn' that helps keep that anvil where it needs to be, even against elite enemies.
I knew that it would be too complicated hence my note. I just couldn't find a simple way to word it better/seem simpler - it works simply in my head but when read out it seems confusing. I also though about amending the shield wall to remove 1 rank of supporting attacks but I had already hit post.
As a further note I wrote some advanced warhammer rules 10 years ago where all races could form a shield wall (with a leadership test). High elves could automatically form one and still march 8" (all to do with the fluff about how swift and disciplined HE formations are).
I would still let them move, just not as fast. After all even a Roman Testudo could advance. I'll retry below.
A High Elf unit with this ability must declare that they are using the Shield wall formation at the beginning of a turn, and only if unengaged in combat. A unit in a Shield wall cannot march. Both the unit and any enemy engaged toward the front facing lose one rank of Supporting Attacks (so normal infantry attack with one rank, horded infantry 2 and so on and so forth.). In addition the unit in Shieldwall formation adds +1 to it's armour save representing the extra protection afforded by the overlapping shields.
The unit counts as being stubborn whilst in combat. However if they lose combat by more than their rank bonus the Shieldwall is broken and they cannot reform and declare a new shieldwall unless they are unengaged.
Additionally if an enemy unit loses combat by less then their own rank bonus they do not flee.
A Unit in Shieldwall formation can elect to pursue a broken enemy but roll 3D6 picking the lowest 2 dice. I they pursue the Shieldwall is considered broken.
NOTE: I thought adding a parry would make them too sturdy.
Spearmen 10 Points Good. Personally, I would add an option for HA (for +1 or 2pts), but just my opinion.
Archers 11 Points Seems a bit much to be honest. They hardly benefit from ASF or the 6++ as much as spears. 10 or maybe even 9
Lothern Seaguard 13 Points again, bit much to my mind...
Silver Helms 22 Points Dear lord, they got a point increase? If this included shields, fine, but otherwise -2 points.
Ellyrion Reavers 18 Points Again, a price rise? Disagree with this
Like the units you're putting in core, but I think you're over estimating the value of a 6++ (nothing wrong with a conservative approach though) or you're including equipment that you haven't listed.
With Archers I consider letting them shoot twice if stationary. Not sure if this would be OP or not (please let me know!) But to be honest they would still be decent supporting troops in combat. You are probably right though 10 points would be ok, 11 with light armour.
LSG you are probably right - 12 and same with Silver Helms.
High elves have too few choices in Core. Silver Helms are a must in core at the very least and I was torn about Reavers, I still am.
Overall you are correct though, I took pains not to create a 'Fan list' which all tend to turn out to be completely broken on close analysis.
Sword Masters 16 Points SN1
White Lions 16 Points SN2
Phoenix Guard 16 Point SN3
Shadow Warriors 16 Points These boys need some work, perhaps BS 5 ala shades?
Dragon Princes 32 Points Again with the overestimation of the ward. Whilst you got it right with the spears, the nerfs cavalry took with the edition change either equal or far outweigh the buff you've put in. Hence, 30 points or perhaps 29
Tiranoc Chariot 90 Points 2 for 1 for the number of units limit right? Why not make them in units of 1 to 3?
I think you are generally right. I would love Shadow warrior to get shields back. Then they would have a 5+ AS with 5++ (Ward + parry save stack). Chariots - not a bad idea
RBT 80 Points - 3 crew, 2 for 1 OR 100 Points but multiple shots = S5. Personally would like for the volley to be a bit better (3D3 instead) and 85 to 90 (with 3 crew). Your version does seem fair, maybe a bit conservative
Great Eagle 50 Points - Armour Piercing, 2 for 1
Lion Chariot 150 Points
Add drake riders. You know you want them.
I believe High Elves will get Eagle Riders that will be called Wind Lords or something like that. It is mentioned in the fluff that they were used to patrol and bear messages across the huge Elven Empire.
SN1 - Sword Masters have three Sword Forms
1. Evade - Parry Save (stacks with Preternatural Senses)
2. Swift- Gain +1I and ASF
3. Pierce - Armour Piercing
number 3 is nowhere near as good as 1 and 2. 2 is strange in that they already have ASF, merely cancelled by Great Weapons. My version would be:
1. Evade - as current
2. Swift - reroll ones to hit
3. Pierce - reroll ones to wound, Armour Piercing
but at the current 15 ppm
I haven't come up with better names and explanations as of yet to my sadness. Thinking of relating each sword form to an Aspect of Khaine OR a dangerous creature. Remember my version of SoA is just a normal ASF. Hence with great weapon they only strike in initiative order, no ASF and no re-roll associated. I can imagine other elven troops would butcher them (Striking first and with re-rolls!) hence Swift was the option to make Sword Masters strike at an equal level. Pierce is a lesser option, but I thought that it is still an option against very heavy cavalry.
This version of the unit is still seriously good and I was considering putting them in the rare section with the option to count 1 unit as special per Arch Mage.
SN2 White Lions gain D3 wounds to monsters (or Heroic KB?)
considering their rather large nerf with the 'no rerolls', these boys need a LOT more to justify 16 ppm. I'd add that white lion cloaks add +1 AS all the time, with an additional +1 vs. shooting, the D3 wounds to Monstrous Infantry, Cavalry and Monsters, and even then might be searching for a little bit extra for 16
Again I think you are correct. 14-15 points would be better. Not sure about the extra +1AS in combat - can see alot of none HE players whine about how the fragile elves are not fragile enough!
SN3 - Pheonix Guard - Scrap fear and ward save. Gain Unbreakable and Guardian Formation
Guardian Formation= unit may gain extra rank of supporting attacks (like spears)
Right, no ward save eliminates the cheese I was expecting with the stackable ward save. Again, seems to be very expensive for what they do. Compared to Black Guard, they have Unbreakable vs. Stubborn and Guardian Formation vs. 2 Attacks for 3 points more (I'm assuming ASF = reroll missed hits all the time). Also, these really aren't that different to Sword Masters (a point of strength, WS, I, the blade forms compared to ASF, formation vs. 2 Attacks and unbreakable). It would be nice to see some more defined roles for elites.
Might pull it back 1 point. I expect Black Guard to change or become more expesnive come 8th Edition. Might also add +1MR to unit including characters who join.
Mages gain special rule Innate Mages = Reroll any result of 1 on power or dispel dice.
uh, not a fan of this. Would lead to some serious dodgy-ness when the Slaan came around to be redone.
You really think re-rolling 1's on PD and DD is really that bad? I think it gives Elves a nice edge without being Overpowered - after all they are superior natural magic users than other races AND they have much longer to study! Otherwise I barely feel HE magic is that much better than others such as say Empire, if you factor out back items (Banner of Sorcery, BoH). I shouldn't need to take silly magic items to have a racial edge which should be natural. Elf mages are also more expensive. How about re-rolling 1 roll of 1 per casting or Dispel attempt?
I am guessing Slann can just get a +1 on casting value on top amongst other silliness...
And that is how I would present 8th edition High Elves