High Elf wishlisting...

[Trains_Get_Robbed]

They are still one of the most killy armies, easily up there with Chaos warriors and savage orcs in terms of sheer damage. They are certainly not mediocre.

As for defence: they are just as hard to kill (if not harder due to high WS and decent armour) as every other T3 unit out there. T4 would mean they would take 20-30% less damage, wich is not that big a deal, certainly not as bad as you seem to want to make out.



6 handgunner shots are worth 70 points and im pretty sure someone worked out on this thred that the bolt throwers damage is equivelent to about 90 points of handgunners....that was at their old price.



This is warhammer.

All elves die at the same rate. Anvils and Warmachines that have been around for hundreds or even thousands of years blow up every battle. Slan, some of the oldest and rarest creatures in existance, die pretty often.

Fluff often means little for things like that.

I've already stated a few pages back that H.E in particular don't kill that much (2 ranks of 7 White Lions for example kill only around 10 models assuming 3's to hit), and henceforth anyone suggesting or whining about H.E's killing too much is rather ignorant of basic maths/H.E formations or playing large enough point games in which a H.E general can field units of nastiness (40 W.Ls etc. . .).

Thus, I will restate, H.E units are generally 20 or so bodies give or take (5 dudes) depending on the unit, and are all regulated to a single attack save for S.M and D.Ps. Speaking of S.M and D.Ps they are the only multi-attack models in the H.E book that aren't monsters/chariots/charcters, and are worth taking (Shadow Warriors serve no purpose).

As we have all stated numerous times before H.E are essentially in our minds: an elite force that not only out-skills and outwits it's opponents through tactics on the battlefield, but also survives through their superior knowledge of magicks, and glass-hammery shooting/combat abilities. If G.W can replicate this in someway -which in mind currently exists to a decent extent- then they have succeeded.

[TheDungen]

I just don't want them to rely to much on magic, prefer to the high elf general wielding his armies as a lesser being wields his sword.

and especially not on high magic. what's the point of letting us take all the lores if we must take high magic to be playable.

[Von Wibble]

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to have high magic simply represented with no high lore, just a couple of free spells all wizards get (drain magic and shield of saphery), plus the ability to take any lores signature spell instead of what you roll. Mages would need to be costed appropriately for such perks (+40 pts but make sure the high spells aren't above 7+ casting value in effect). Gives them good control of magic even with low level wizards, but the mages are expensive and fragile.

[Mannfred]

Ummmm:

1) Removing speed DEFS!!!!
2) Swordmasters should be given something like the Blackguard "Warrior Elite" special rule - just re-roll to hit flat out.
3) No Monstrous Cavalry for High Elves; EVEN if it's Lion Cavalry.....and No Drake Knights.....UNLESS it's to boast Dragon Princes with str4 - that would make them very monster-ish.
4) Sea Guard have heavy armour standard, to distinguish them from Spearmen.....
5) White Lions can just be given a White Lion Axe; ie +2 strength and not great weapon. or a better name.
6) Dragon Mages be reworked; or just be generally cheaper. like about 70pts cheaper and made to be t5 and not t6. Especially with the 25% ratios they just eat up too many points....
7) Would not mind seeing a stardragon with straight up 7s for all it's stats...like how the moondragon is mostly 6s, yeaaa so it can take at least 1 cannon ball.
8) Magic items keep it to 14 items. So just one more item in each section in comparison to other armies.

[The Low King]

Excuse me, good sir, is there any table I don't know about with the equivalence handgunner shoot - points? I can't see where that 6 shots - 70 points come from :S

Anyway, warmachines with basic troops attacks aren't meh in your book? In mine certainly they are.

Handgunners (BS 3) are 11 points now arnt they? 6x11 is 66 points (roughly 70 points)
Dwarf hangunners (+1 to hit) are 14 points each

I've already stated a few pages back that H.E in particular don't kill that much (2 ranks of 7 White Lions for example kill only around 10 models assuming 3's to hit), and henceforth anyone suggesting or whining about H.E's killing too much is rather ignorant of basic maths/H.E formations or playing large enough point games in which a H.E general can field units of nastiness (40 W.Ls etc. . .).

Only 10 kills from 14 attacks? damn, how terrible. (I cant think of many other infantry short of Chaos warriors/chosen, Savage orc biguns or wardancers that are going to kill that many from 14 guys, and they certainly wont manage it from 14 attacks..)

Thus, I will restate, H.E units are generally 20 or so bodies give or take (5 dudes) depending on the unit, and are all regulated to a single attack save for S.M and D.Ps. Speaking of S.M and D.Ps they are the only multi-attack models in the H.E book that aren't monsters/chariots/charcters, and are worth taking (Shadow Warriors serve no purpose).

So take bigger units? My dwarfs only have one attack each, low initiative and always strikes....thats how i get around it. My units (when not in horde) have max 14 attacks (15 with a champ)...

If you want to take units of 15 (although 25 swordmasters seems pretty scary to me) and play MSU then thats up to you, you will however suffer once you start taking casualties.

[R Man]

Handgunners (BS 3) are 11 points now arnt they? 6x11 is 66 points (roughly 70 points)
Dwarf hangunners (+1 to hit) are 14 points each

But when the Bolt Thrower was costed, Handgunners were only 8 points. And I'm not sure how much they went up, but 11 points seems like too much.

[Shadow_Steed]

Heavy Armour for Spearmen, and something suitable for the overpriced Archers.

[The Low King]

But when the Bolt Thrower was costed, Handgunners were only 8 points. And I'm not sure how much they went up, but 11 points seems like too much.

So they are the right price in 8th edition but were a bit too expensive in 7th edition......

[Hoshiyami]

So they are the right price in 8th edition but were a bit too expensive in 7th edition......

I'm really sorry, but I don't understand this logic.

[The Low King]

I'm really sorry, but I don't understand this logic.

When the bolt throwers were costed the equivelent damage in handgunners was 70ish points. That means they costed too much.
Now, the equivelent damage in handgunners is 90ish points. That means they cost about right.

As we play now rather than then, they are priced fine.

[R Man]

When the bolt throwers were costed the equivelent damage in handgunners was 70ish points. That means they costed too much.
Now, the equivelent damage in handgunners is 90ish points. That means they cost about right.

As we play now rather than then, they are priced fine.

Unless one considers Handgunners to be currently overpriced. In which case they are both overpriced.

[Zephel]

Unless one considers Handgunners to be currently overpriced. In which case they are both overpriced.

Nail on the head. It's bad business to compare one army (which you seem to be partial IE possibly bias towards) to another when it's the overall picture you should be looking at.

[Hoshiyami]

When the bolt throwers were costed the equivelent damage in handgunners was 70ish points. That means they costed too much.
Now, the equivelent damage in handgunners is 90ish points. That means they cost about right.

As we play now rather than then, they are priced fine.

Even following this "equivalent damage" system (I dunno how much should cost an organ gun, an hellfire or a cannon this way), handgunners went up 1 point, not 3...

[Athlan na Dyr]

Ummmm:
4) Sea Guard have heavy armour standard, to distinguish them from Spearmen.....
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.
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8) Magic items keep it to 14 items. So just one more item in each section in comparison to other armies.

Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water.

as for number 8, I can already here the whine from every other army already...
If anyone was to get stuff that doesn't fit with everyone elses magic items or their allotment, then it should be dwarves or daemons (as it currently is)
Lets face it, chances are there is going to be the same number of good items anyway...

[boli]

Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water..

Sea Guard with Life Jackets and free Lifeguard with every 20 models

[The Low King]

Even following this "equivalent damage" system (I dunno how much should cost an organ gun, an hellfire or a cannon this way), handgunners went up 1 point, not 3...

i thought they were now 11 points?

Unless one considers Handgunners to be currently overpriced. In which case they are both overpriced.

Overpriced compared to 7th edtion armies, but compared to the rest of the empire book?

[R Man]

Overpriced compared to 7th edtion armies, but compared to the rest of the empire book?

At 11 points yes. At 9 points maybe not. Compared to a Bolt Thrower? Pretty much back at Square 1.

[Židrek]

Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water.

See I don't have a problem with this per say as medieval knights learned to swim in armor. Here is an article that mentions it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guernsey/conten..._feature.shtml

The idea wouldn't be to remain buoyant indefinitely, just long enough to shrug off the armor before you drowned.

[sulla]

Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water.
.

Pretty sure Roman Marines used to wear a fair bit of armour. Generally, the threat of falling overboard is far less scary than a sword to the guts for these guys; they usually fight on their own ship or on the other guy's. Very little time is spent on the railings, and the little time that is passes less dangerously with decent armour protection.

Regardless of that, the reason Sea guard (and HE spearmen and DE warriors) should have Heavy armour is... because that's the armour the models are wearing... Price them fairly for it rather than saying some armies make full body armour out of tinfoil and some make guy plates out of adamantium.

(My 2 cents, anyway)

[TheDungen]

A breastplate isnt heavy armour. What silverhelms wear is heavy armour. Notice the difference? except the chest plate the spearmen only wear scale mail which certainly isn't heavy armour. If you look at high elves with heavy armour say the silver helms they have plate on their legs as well, under the scale mail. If you look at the PG they have plate boots sticking out under their robes, normal spearmen have simple leather boots. if you look at white lions they have plate leggings to.

As long as Brettonian knights are limited to heavy armour (rather than full plate as the imperial version) high elf spearmen doesnt use heavy armour.

Same goes for the roman mariners, lorica segmentata isnt heavy armour, its just a chestplate, no protection for the arms and no protection for the legs. In fact its even less heavy armour than the one the spearmen use.
My guess would that when swimming in armour its not the overall weight but the weight of arms and legs (that you need to move) that matters the most. it feels that way when you try to swim fully clothed, but i'm only guessing i haven't tried swimming with armour.
And also could the roman mariners swim? cause if they couldn't then it wouldn't matter if they wore armour or not, they'd drown anyway.