If you want Tolkien you know there 's a game for that right? This is warhammer and here elves and pansies dancing around the battlefield. (anyone else think of 300)
Think the war of the beard story where the dwarf (Gotrek Starbreaker right?) survived because he has armour and caledor survives because the dwarf cant hit him. (until he does and big loss they lost the worst phoenix king ever)
Actually it is a big deal for the fact the Phoenix Crown was lost and taken as compensation by the Dwarfs (they still have itOriginally Posted by TheDungen
), other then that, its to bad the Dwarfs didn't kill him sooner.
Last edited by Þidrek; 17-05-2012 at 21:40. Reason: Grammar and elaberation
Worth it to get rid of the only king stupid enough to go to war in a crown.
Umm... there are several characters that wear their crowns in warhammer to do battle. Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Alith Anar and Malekith all go to war with crowns (although, Malekith's is part of his helmet).
Thorgrim Grudgebearer: The Dragon Crown of Karaz: The Crown Bears the Master Rune of Kingship.
Alith Anar: Shadow Crown: If Alith Anar (and any unit he is with) Breaks from close combat, any opponent pursuing him must halve the distance they roll (rounding up) for pursuing.
Malekith: Circlet of Iron: Malekith gains one extra power dice in the Dark Elves' Magic Phase (which only he may use) and he also generates one extra dispel dice for his army in the Opponent's Magic Phase.
Those are just the ones I could think of off my head to reference.
Archaon wears one too.
And the "War Crown of Saphery" doesn't ring a bell?
Who is Teclis, couldn't be the dude I use as my avatar could itArchaon wears one too.
And the "War Crown of Saphery" doesn't ring a bell?
Okay yeah he was an obvious one that I obviously didn't think of when I was making my reply.
yeah but those are crowns made for war, a high elf army book state that caledor II was the only king ever proud enough to wear the phoenix crown to war.
When stated as you have above, yes you are correct; however, your previous statement (as quoted beneath) did not give such a clearly defined as being in reference to the Phoenix Crown.
As it might seem I'm trying to pick a fight with you when I'm not I'll just leave it at that.Worth it to get rid of the only king stupid enough to go to war in a crown.
Yeah we kinda got offtopic
Okay how about this?
- Ellyrion Reavers moved to Core and given Ilithmar Barding
- Silver Helms get a slight stat boost to justify them being a Special Choice
- Dragon Princes to Rare (as you can't cook them in their dragon armor
- Remove SoA and replace is with the following:
- Swordmasters have ASF
- White Lions Strike at initiative
- Reduce point cost of Repeater Bolt Throwers
- Shadow Warriors (Composite Long Bows), Ellyrion Reavers (Composite Bow), And Lothern Sea Guard (Composite Bows): the way they work is, when fired at short range they are strength 4, if shot at long range they are the normal strength 3, all penalties still apply)
- Martial Prowess not only allows you to fight in one extra rank but conveys a 6+ ward save that is only used while in close combat to convey their skill at closing ranks and blocking with their shields ("Each member of the unit instinctively knows the mind of his comrades to either side and the whole regiment intuitively fights as one body. Each warrior plays his part as if their every movement was part of a carefully choreographed plan, overlapping one another and providing protection, or opening the defenses of the enemy without so much as a spoken word or a nod." Spearman fluff first paragraph 3rd sentance page 49)
I still think that fast cavalery in core is a wood elf thing, i even think dark riders should be special.
Yup.
What we need is Silver Helms back in core.
Also, I've said it before, and I have no doubt I'll be saying it again; A fitting replacement for Speed of Asuryan would be to allow parrysaves regardless of weapon used.
This last one seems strangely familiar...Okay how about this?
- Ellyrion Reavers moved to Core and given Ilithmar Barding Fast cavalry shouldn't have a 4+ save. I'd even make LA an option. I do agree with core placement however
- Silver Helms get a slight stat boost to justify them being a Special Choice Why not core? They are relatively common (so no fluff reason) and cavalry armies are not as effective as they once were. I don't think there is anything wrong with having the option of non-infantry in core
- Dragon Princes to Rare (as you can't cook them in their dragon armor
- Remove SoA and replace is with the following:
Odd, but not bad. Gives a nice little bonus for spearmen. I would however make it an optional thing (i.e. the unit may substitute their WS for Strength...) or make it a comparitive thing (for every point of WS higher than the opponent, the HE player reduces their AS by one). I say this as White Lions have a better Strength than WS and it doesn't make sense that the lowly spearmen has enough finesse to get a bonus to wound against a chaos lord...I'd be tempted to simply give all three elves some sort of 'finesse' rule, which would allow them to substitute their Weaponskill for Strength (if it would be higher) when determining armour saves. So generally speaking elves aren't great at wounding, but those wounds they manage to score have a better chance of getting through armour.
- Swordmasters have ASF Meaning they strike at initiative? I'm assuming you mean that they are armed with a 'sword of +2 S' as opposed to a great weapon, with ASF
- White Lions Strike at initiative Why?
- Reduce point cost of Repeater Bolt Throwers Oh yeah
- Shadow Warriors (Composite Long Bows), Ellyrion Reavers (Composite Bow), And Lothern Sea Guard (Composite Bows): the way they work is, when fired at short range they are strength 4, if shot at long range they are the normal strength 3, all penalties still apply) Isn't this the WE rule? Leave fluffy army rules with the armies they belong to
- Martial Prowess not only allows you to fight in one extra rank but conveys a 6+ ward save that is only used while in close combat to convey their skill at closing ranks and blocking with their shields ("Each member of the unit instinctively knows the mind of his comrades to either side and the whole regiment intuitively fights as one body. Each warrior plays his part as if their every movement was part of a carefully choreographed plan, overlapping one another and providing protection, or opening the defenses of the enemy without so much as a spoken word or a nod." Spearman fluff first paragraph 3rd sentance page 49)
Only one of those is represented in game terms, though. Weapon skill is a very poor form of protection in warhammer...
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So Yoemen Warden should be thrown into Special as well? Just curious as to your reasoning why.
I think my bias towards them showed to much with the Barding.
I'd be tempted to simply give all three elves some sort of 'finesse' rule, which would allow them to substitute their Weaponskill for Strength (if it would be higher) when determining armour saves. So generally speaking elves aren't great at wounding, but those wounds they manage to score have a better chance of getting through armour.
Odd, but not bad. Gives a nice little bonus for spearmen. I would however make it an optional thing (i.e. the unit may substitute their WS for Strength...) or make it a comparitive thing (for every point of WS higher than the opponent, the HE player reduces their AS by one). I say this as White Lions have a better Strength than WS and it doesn't make sense that the lowly spearmen has enough finesse to get a bonus to wound against a chaos lord...That is pretty much what I meant when I wrote that.- Swordmasters have ASF Meaning they strike at initiative? I'm assuming you mean that they are armed with a 'sword of +2 S' as opposed to a great weapon, with ASF
I was thinking along the lines of, they are High Elves thus highly trained with their weapons and thus not striking last with their 2H Axes. But as they don't dedicate themselves like the Swordmaster they wouldn't strike first while ignoring ASL.- White Lions Strike at initiative Why?
Actually didn't know that that was a Glade Guard Rule.- Shadow Warriors (Composite Long Bows), Ellyrion Reavers (Composite Bow), And Lothern Sea Guard (Composite Bows): the way they work is, when fired at short range they are strength 4, if shot at long range they are the normal strength 3, all penalties still apply) Isn't this the WE rule? Leave fluffy army rules with the armies they belong to
This is not really my original idea but I don't like Parry for save for spearmen using spears one handed, they are two long to be able to use properly like that. If you gave them a parry save when not using a shield I wouldn't have a problem with it.- Martial Prowess not only allows you to fight in one extra rank but conveys a 6+ ward save that is only used while in close combat to convey their skill at closing ranks and blocking with their shields ("Each member of the unit instinctively knows the mind of his comrades to either side and the whole regiment intuitively fights as one body. Each warrior plays his part as if their every movement was part of a carefully choreographed plan, overlapping one another and providing protection, or opening the defenses of the enemy without so much as a spoken word or a nod." Spearman fluff first paragraph 3rd sentance page 49)
Overall was just throwing ideas out to try and get the thread back to its purpose.
actually it would make alot of sense that white lions can ignore ASL of their GW because lore wise those chracian axes are well crafted and well balanced. WL would be useless if they dont hit first (no protection and T3 woohoo). remember the old book? no one used WL back then.I was thinking along the lines of, they are High Elves thus highly trained with their weapons and thus not striking last with their 2H Axes. But as they don't dedicate themselves like the Swordmaster they wouldn't strike first while ignoring ASL.
imho all HE units should be equipped with badass lightweight armor and weapons (in short, same equipment but with additional special rules) that other race dont have. I am still sad about the removal of ithilmar barding.
The old book was played with another ruleset. With step up the ASL isn't so terrible (specially with cheaper ASL troops)
PS: I completely agree with the badass equipment, though ^^U
I would want to see the ASF rule changed to something like this. They still get to strike first but they no longer get the re-roll for having a greater I. DE should be the only elf army with re-rolls to hit.
There is one thing I'd like to see.
Elven heroes and lords saw, some time ago, their thoughness fluffwise cut down. Other armies saw their character stats changed (orc warbosses strength, vampire attacks, etc). Right now, elven heroes have stats... somehow dissapointing, forcing in this step up edition their (quite pricy) heroes to rely in their special rules, equipment and/or both to survive even the most basic combat (and/or do something useful).
So... if fluffwise elven heroes should be T3 (also, this helps to make them different from human ones) and pricy (dying race, eliteness, whatever), why not see their # of attacks 'dramaticaly' increased? Obviously, the magic items selection and special rules should change to avoid cheese (unkillable dreadlord and ASF GW wielding prince come to mind) but it would give some 'special flavour' to elven heroes, in a way different from any other army without freeing them from the 'elven thoughness syndrome'.
Lore wise every man and his third cousin has a well crafted weapon (except for Orcs and Beastmen). Which means the sum total argument is ruleswise, and an exception for White Lions to the ordinary rules for GW infantry seems like rules for the sake of rules to me. Besides, as it stands there isn't a lot that 40 white lions can't walk up to and smash (barring tarpits, I'll come back to this). I personally would prefer if I had to think about match ups a little more. I do think that White Lion cloaks should add +1 to the AS in combat, ala Sea Dragon cloaks.
Yet again, rules for the sake of rules. Yes, they may sound awesome. Yes, they may be fluffy and contribute to an elite army.
But they do very little to account for the disadvantages the transition to 8th caused for all of the elven armies.
To give an example, consider your humble night goblin. Now take equal points of night goblins and a high elf unit and tell me which one does better (assuming the General's Presence and BSB) and which player would prefer the match-up? Now, do any of the proposed special rules that have come up in this thread change this without trying to port aspects of 7th edition back into 8th?
Does this example indicate a problem with the rules of steadfast, goblins, the to hit chart or the horde rule? Not really, as plenty of other armies get along fine with all of these. What this does indicate is that High Elves have some serious issues in porting their current playstyle (elite and fragile as anything) into the new edition.
To my mind, this would indicate that High Elves are probably going to receive a points drop and/or some manner of boost to their survivability (as happened with Undead when they were revamped* for 8th), rather than a slew of special rules that mess around with the core mechanics of the edition.
What I would like to see is Speed of Asuryan changed back into a defensive perk (for the sake of completeness, a parry save regardless of weapon or a debuff to be hit), along with some nifty formation rules (such as the shielding one proposed a few pages ago) and access to a more heavily armoured force (through the option for heavy cavalry outside of special and/or heavy armour as an upgrade for some troops).
Of course, I'd kill for some new core troops as well.
*someone had to do it
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