High Elf wishlisting...

[theJ]

@Core/Special/Special:
High Elf commoners drafted into service serve as either Archers or Spearmen depending on experience, High Elf nobles serve as Silver Helms or Commanders, depending on experience. This is why these are the common types of units fielded by the High Elves - because ALL their armies have access to them, in considerable numbers. Hence Core.
Province-specific units are always deployed in considerably lower numbers, or not at all, hence why they are special choices.
Dragon Princes should be rares, due to... well... being bloody rare. They are formed only out of the creme-of-the-crop of the nobility of a single province... that's not a whole lot of Dragon Princes to go around.
Ellyrian Reavers being scouts is a non-issue. Most armies may have scouts, but most settle for just that - scouts. You don't have to give them excessive training in mounted combat using multiple weapons and form them up in entire units in order to use them as scouts.
In fact, I'd argue that's rather counterproductive... :P
Those armies who don't have access to Reavers are simply going to have to make due with their own scouts, whether these are Shadow Warriors, specially trained individuals who don't fight alongside the army, or simply skilled citizen-soldiers on a special assignment.
Ellyrian Reavers are just as rare as the other province-specific units, and as such should remain special choices. In fact, I wouldn't complain about Lothern Sea Guard getting beefed up to special status, either.

@White Lions:
Removing SoA is only going to "break" them if we assume the cost(and everything else, as well) stays the same. Yes, for 15 points, they'd be crap, but for 12-13?
As mentioned, the Greatswords are doing fine on 11(10?), with a point more of armour. White Lions on their end have +1 armour vs shooting, as well as more skill and strength. I'm no master of mathhammer, but I'd still consider taking them at 12-13 points(if they hadn't been against the theme of my army, anyway :P).

[cptcosmic]

@Core/Special/Special:
Ellyrian Reavers are just as rare as the other province-specific units, and as such should remain special choices. In fact, I wouldn't complain about Lothern Sea Guard getting beefed up to special status, either.

actually reavers are pretty common all over ulthuan as vanguards in battle and patrolling the borders of their land.

@White Lions:
Removing SoA is only going to "break" them if we assume the cost(and everything else, as well) stays the same. Yes, for 15 points, they'd be crap, but for 12-13?
As mentioned, the Greatswords are doing fine on 11(10?), with a point more of armour. White Lions on their end have +1 armour vs shooting, as well as more skill and strength. I'm no master of mathhammer, but I'd still consider taking them at 12-13 points(if they hadn't been against the theme of my army, anyway :P).

yeah greatswords do fine but they have the option to receive to hit rerolls without having to stick to a specific magic lore. the lack of rerolls will mostly like make WL useless. they have 1 high quality attack and you need to hit rerolls to make those attacks count to kill or break the opposing unit. any preferred target for WL (monsters and cavarly) will stick them to a prolonged fight and we all know how this works out for T3 5+AS. High amount of low quality attacks will screw them even more then. no one ever used WL before ASF was included and there would be no point to use them again and we will see even more teclis (shadow lore) with phoenix guard lists...

[TheDungen]

the reason why we have such core unit choices is because fluff wise HE armies are mostly spears and archers. if HE had another core choices like reavers or helms no one would take spears anymore just like last edition where everyone took 2x10 archers to fill core.

Yeah unfortunatly the use of % ruined that =( so now i use LSG. But i plan on havign onky archers as core when i make my charce army, hunters with bows feels alot more chrace than spearmen.

it depends on what kind of unit you fight. against great weapon wielding units the extra armor is pretty much worthless (esp. when the unit has 4S as base). against anything with base S4 with atleast halberds its not very great. against monsters which would actually be good targets for your S6 unit it is worthless (cause monsters usually have atleast S5 and will thunderstomp/breath the unit down before they could even attack). it would be good against lance knights after the charge but thats it. it might be good against cheap core with high amount of low S attacks but you dont want to send your WL into that anyway.

How many units have S4 and great weapons? Like orcs and chaos warriors? (oh and ogres but i dont count them) and 4+ is still better against s4 haleberds they atleast get a 6+ save against them. And how would always strike forst or always stike in initative order help in that case? it wouldnt reduce the number of incoming attacks at least for the first two rounds of close combat and by then you've lost a fair share of points from the enemy attacks. And i'm not saying the should stay the current points cost. Reduce them to the ame rough points cost as greatswords, with 4+ they're very similar. id say reolls to hit and +1ws and +1s is kind of equal at the same points cost. And if a unit facing a WL unit is armed with greatweapons they both strike last which means I order and then the WL will strike first in most cases anyway. Ok they lose the reroll but i sincerely doubt they'll be allowed to strike anything more than Initiative order in the coming army book anyway. the the diffrence will really only be against haleberd armed enemies and even then they get a 6+ save as opposed to nothing.

as you said, the higher Ini is wasted except in special circumstances, the WS is great but Empire has the option to give them rerolls which is worth alot more then +1 WS. M mostly will not matter too cause they have enough options for cheap stuff to support it and artillery forces you into combat asap anyway. HE dont have the tools to make such a unit work. HE also already have a durable unit, the phoenix guard. now if those WL were skirmishers, had throwing weapons, would be able to shoot and attack from 3 ranks minimum and could use those throwing weapons on the charge thus the BS of 4 is not wasted too, well that would be a different story first it would be cool and fit their fluff as hunters and it would actually be effective against a wide range of units.

Phoenix guards arent stubborn however, so they're far more likely to run of if faced with a unit that can beat them i combat. (and there are quite a few of thoose around). And if they were ranged they'd be shadow warriors not white lions, the white lions aren't hunters they're recruited from hunters, they are the royal bodyguard who never yeilds to the enemy even if it means they all die.

And wardsave doesn't fit PG anyway, they should be magical attacks and flaming attacks. and maybe cause fear again. And they're already diffrent from SW and WL since they have haleberds instead of GW. Its more important to make WL and SW different since they're more alike ATM.

[cptcosmic]

Yeah unfortunatly the use of % ruined that =( so now i use LSG. But i plan on havign onky archers as core when i make my charce army, hunters with bows feels alot more chrace than spearmen.

lore wise chrace use spears and bows by tradition, spearelves are not that far off actually.

And how would always strike forst or always stike in initative order help in that case?

ASF actually helps alot. those rerolls to hit you get from ASF allow the S6 actually count something. if you miss your attack then S6 is wasted. it allows you, with proper movement and combo charges (which requires alot of player skills to perform), dealing massive damage & wipe out units in one combat without receiving hits back.

now if WL lose ASF but get a point reduction this will happen: monsters will slaughter them on mass before they get even to hit even if the WL charge first, the monster will most likely survive the few hits back and finish the unit of next combat phase. cavarly will charge them because of greater movement and again slaughter them on mass before they can strike back and while still dealing respectable damage the chance is high that the WL will be stuck in a prolonged combat which is bad. you can forget to ever attack any cheap unit with high amount of low S attacks just like now too.

white lions were not much different to your suggestion in the last edition. the cost was 13 points per model and they had no ASF and they were stubborn as long the general was still alive. no one used them.

And if they were ranged they'd be shadow warriors not white lions, the white lions aren't hunters they're recruited from hunters, they are the royal bodyguard who never yeilds to the enemy even if it means they all die.

throwing weapons are not in the same range of bows and WL would not scout either. also white lions are not recruited, they proof themself worthy by killing a white lion in hand to hand combat and second yes WL (and all chrace citizens) are hunters by tradition, WL even have a special rule representing their training for being exposed to harsh conditions in unwieldy terrain. just because their job is to die protecting their lord doesnt mean they are not hunters any more and that they abandon their traditions. it is like saying citizens of chrace protecting their home are not hunters any more because they are spearelves for the next month during war

Phoenix guards arent stubborn however

phoenix guard also wont lose alot of models in combat thus most likely wont break anyway. with a character in the unit they can win easily. you cant do the same for WL and place a character into the unit to counter their weakness.

re-rolls which is actually more a of a dark elf thing if you ask me, same as hatred

there are more sources providing rerolls, it is definately not a DE thing only.


in short, point cost reduction and reducing killyness does not work, it makes HE into a generic army like empire except HE dont have cheap support and proper artillery. such changes will not work.

[Hoshiyami]

now if WL lose ASF but get a point reduction this will happen: monsters will slaughter them on mass before they get even to hit even if the WL charge first, the monster will most likely survive the few hits back and finish the unit of next combat phase. cavarly will charge them because of greater movement and again slaughter them on mass before they can strike back and while still dealing respectable damage the chance is high that the WL will be stuck in a prolonged combat which is bad. you can forget to ever attack any cheap unit with high amount of low S attacks just like now too.

I don't understand how this doesn't apply to empire greatswords... they'd have the same problems (with less WS and S), wouldn't they?

[kaulem]

The difference I believe is that the empire is flooded with cheap troops and cheap characters and so can afford to take a horde of greatswords with supporting characters (priest, captain etc...)

While high elves have little points left after having paid their core and characters.

[dtjunkie19]

I don't understand how this doesn't apply to empire greatswords... they'd have the same problems (with less WS and S), wouldn't they?

Don't forget, greatswords have access to characters granting rerolls as well as a chariot granting +1 to hit.

[cptcosmic]

I don't understand how this doesn't apply to empire greatswords... they'd have the same problems (with less WS and S), wouldn't they?

they dont have the same problems because empire has alot of cheap troops and support thus can afford take a horde of greatswords with cheap characters giving them bonus to hit and rerolls without crippling the rest. beside that they have warmachines that can blow alot of units that would usualy be dangerous to them. HE neither have cheap troops/support nor support characters like empire or powerful artillery and they wont get them in the future too cause HE are after all an elite army composed of exceptionally well trained units with low amount of bodies on the table. if you want to have cheap troops and alot of bodies on the table then HE is not for you.

[Hoshiyami]

The difference I believe is that the empire is flooded with cheap troops and cheap characters and so can afford to take a horde of greatswords with supporting characters (priest, captain etc...)

While high elves have little points left after having paid their core and characters.

Don't forget, greatswords have access to characters granting rerolls as well as a chariot granting +1 to hit.

...so the problem would be with the rest of the army, wouldn't it?

[theunwantedbeing]

The difference I believe is that the empire is flooded with cheap troops and cheap characters and so can afford to take a horde of greatswords with supporting characters (priest, captain etc...)

While high elves have little points left after having paid their core and characters.

Agreed.
High elves have to take at least 60% core, unlike Empire who only need 25%.
Similarly high elf character's are incredibly expensive, being a full 30-50pts per hero more expensive, which means at small games under 1k the high elves have very few points left for non-core troops like white lions...however they do have plenty left for the equally expensive swordmasters and phoenix guard.

Ws5 and St6 for 12-13pts a model is terrible value.
Especially given that ws4 with st5 is just 11pts for empire, for high elves having ws5 and st6 would have to cost at most 9pts/model otherwise they wouldn't be able to field big enough units to survive the massive casualties they'll suffer.

[Židrek]

the reason why we have such core unit choices is because fluff wise HE armies are mostly spears and archers. if HE had another core choices like reavers or helms no one would take spears anymore just like last edition where everyone took 2x10 archers to fill core.

If the Spearmen and archers get the tweaks needed I would still field them as they have their purpose and place but then again I shouldn't talk as I play for fun and don't do tournaments.

The thing is with just about all of my choices being thrown into special I almost have to theme my army even when I don't want to. You don't see a problem with the fact that we have 2 core choices and 2 rare choices with everything else crammed into special. Make spearmen viable and you will still see them deployed, having Core Cavalry hasn't exactly made the Empire field all Horsemen for their core. As it stand right now yes, but if GW actually does it job worth a damn then Spearmen should still have their place among the ranks.

armor was actually not very common at all. the regular trooper had no armor most of the time cause they could not afford it and only knights had it. firearms were ineffective for pretty long time before it got accurate enough to actually shoot down advancing heavy knight charges hence why polish hussar cavarly still kicked **** for over a century with their super long lances. the reason why armor vanished is because the army composition adopted with the introduction of pike like weapon (mostly ranged units protected by pikes). cavarly shock charges, with the exception of polish hussars, were not so effective when you have no targets to attack cause your lance is outranged by other melee weapons of foot soldiers or your horse got killed by a horde of peasants using crossbows. Even polish hussars were mostly covered by light armor cause it would tire and slow down even the best horse. knights were support from then on, just like they are in 8th edition

Well I was Generalizing and should have been more specific. The reason I chose the Romans was that they had the wealth and practice of fielding large bodies of men with armor and I didn't want to write a dissertation on the evolution of weapons and armor to make a quick point.

[TheDungen]

lore wise chrace use spears and bows by tradition, spearelves are not that far off actually.

Source? and dotn name a genral source saying all high elf armies look like that cause thats just being boring.

ASF actually helps alot. those rerolls to hit you get from ASF allow the S6 actually count something. if you miss your attack then S6 is wasted. it allows you, with proper movement and combo charges (which requires alot of player skills to perform), dealing massive damage & wipe out units in one combat without receiving hits back.

Yeah but as said reolling elves are ethernal hatred dark elves, they wont give two elf armies the same army wide special rule and that's what they basically have today.

now if WL lose ASF but get a point reduction this will happen: monsters will slaughter them on mass before they get even to hit even if the WL charge first, the monster will most likely survive the few hits back and finish the unit of next combat phase. cavarly will charge them because of greater movement and again slaughter them on mass before they can strike back and while still dealing respectable damage the chance is high that the WL will be stuck in a prolonged combat which is bad. you can forget to ever attack any cheap unit with high amount of low S attacks just like now too.

Most armies have quite few monsters. and WL shoudltn exist soly for the purpose of killing monsters. Why is prolonged combat bad in the way i describe the WL (especially against cavalry?) ? and why would highest as int he high elf army WL be bad against hordes is they had a fitting points cost.

white lions were not much different to your suggestion in the last edition. the cost was 13 points per model and they had no ASF and they were stubborn as long the general was still alive. no one used them.

If the general was in the unit actually and yes people did... i did for an example. Give the genral the lion guard honor and they're unbreakable, which is very usefull.

throwing weapons are not in the same range of bows and WL would not scout either. also white lions are not recruited, they proof themself worthy by killing a white lion in hand to hand combat and second yes WL (and all chrace citizens) are hunters by tradition, WL even have a special rule representing their training for being exposed to harsh conditions in unwieldy terrain. just because their job is to die protecting their lord doesnt mean they are not hunters any more and that they abandon their traditions. it is like saying citizens of chrace protecting their home are not hunters any more because they are spearelves for the next month during war

Skirmishers are still not a body guard unit being in a loose formation makes it easier for the nemy to pick of the guy they're trying to protect, the test of killing a white lion (which is older than the unit type as said in th Sunderin triology) is meant to test their streaanght and bravery not their skill as hunters.

phoenix guard also wont lose alot of models in combat thus most likely wont break anyway. with a character in the unit they can win easily. you cant do the same for WL and place a character into the unit to counter their weakness.

Which is? strike last? it'll really only matte rgaisnt monsters and charging lances. (since othe greatweapons will strike after them)

there are more sources providing rerolls, it is definately not a DE thing only.

Not but as an army wide special rule for an elf race it is. and if the greatswords cna get areoll froma charcter the WL can get a wardsave from amage charcter which genrally will eb more usefull anyway than the empire character who'll only help the greatswords.

in short, point cost reduction and reducing killyness does not work, it makes HE into a generic army like empire except HE dont have cheap support and proper artillery. such changes will not work.

amrywide ASF will go, it can no longer serve it puropse due to step up. The rule to make them reroll is just meanto help them in the meantime, in the end it makes them to similar to dark elves to be viable. I'm sugesting alernatives while you're sugestiing somethign that wont happen (armywide ASF cant no longer survive its purpose so wont make it)

[TheDungen]

Don't forget, greatswords have access to characters granting rerolls as well as a chariot granting +1 to hit.

And high elves have the best mages this side of the slann, we're discussing the WL and the greatswords not how their army can support them. Or would you sugges that a warlatar or charcter leading the GS are better in 8t than the same points spent on magic?

[Hoshiyami]

And high elves have the best mages this side of the slann, we're discussing the WL and the greatswords not how their army can support them. Or would you sugges that a warlatar or charcter leading the GS are better in 8t than the same points spent on magic?

Well... it's hard to imagine how 65 points alone invested on magic could help WL hitting more often...

[kissmykiester]

Newbie here, but having read and studied the new 8th Edition rules and all the new army books since then (and only three games under my belt) the fact that it leans toward horde infantry and steadfastness means that the high cost for HE core troops should be kept. They're elite after all. That being said HE should have SoA - they've used that particular weapon for hundreds for years - and as any martial artist will tell you, familirarity and repitition with a weapon breeds speed and accuracy.

Would like to see more MORE core choices and I like the idea of Reavers and Silver Helms in core. Would also like to see the LSG do more for it's cost. Lion Calvary would be cool and mounted drakes cooler but make them both rare and limit their numbers per unit.

[gauly_13]

My personal take on making HE the 'defensive' elf army, while maintaining rule simplicity (which is just the way I like it, helps game flow).

All elven infantry has a 6+ parry save, regardless of weapon loadout.
Elven infantry that use shields jn close combat get 'shield wall', and upgrade their parry to 5+.

To balance this out I'd also make PG itp/unbreakable, and remove their ward save. And obviously play with all the infantry point costs as needed

Keeps it simple, makes HE infantry a viable anvil. Make their hammer units a bit more potent and call it a day!

[Athlan na Dyr]

Newbie here, but having read and studied the new 8th Edition rules and all the new army books since then (and only three games under my belt) the fact that it leans toward horde infantry and steadfastness means that the high cost for HE core troops should be kept. They're elite after all. That being said HE should have SoA - they've used that particular weapon for hundreds for years - and as any martial artist will tell you, familirarity and repitition with a weapon breeds speed and accuracy.

And the Saurus who've been alive (and fighting) since the before the Gates collapsed? The dark elves who (generally) train and fight more often than their High Elven brethren?
Familiarity with a weapon is represented by the models Weapon Skill and to lesser extent their initiative.
The problem with the implementation of this for High Elves is it doesn't really keep them alive due to the 'to hit' chart ranging from a 3+ to a 5+, and step up making initiative counterable with bodies.

And this situation is what led to SoA being implemented in the first place: as a defensive bonus against swarms of enemies. Of course, this changed with the edition and required a band-aid solution (the current re-roll mechanic). However, for some (such as myself) this feels both gimmicky and very wonky in places and they would prefer a return to High Elves being the defensive elves and dark elves remaining the deranged hitty elves. Hence, a change to Speed of Asuryan.

Would like to see more MORE core choices and I like the idea of Reavers and Silver Helms in core. Would also like to see the LSG do more for it's cost. Lion Calvary would be cool and mounted drakes cooler but make them both rare and limit their numbers per unit.

Agree with this. Variety is very rarely a bad thing.

from cptcosmic.
ASF actually helps alot. those rerolls to hit you get from ASF allow the S6 actually count something. if you miss your attack then S6 is wasted. it allows you, with proper movement and combo charges (which requires alot of player skills to perform), dealing massive damage & wipe out units in one combat without receiving hits back.

Ridiculous. By that logic a cannon can misfire, so its S10 counts for nothing. All those rerolls add is an extra 2 hits every nine attacks (vs lower WS). If those are the difference between a unit dealing 'massive damage' and being so poor that no-one would take them then I seriously wonder what on earth you are playing against and how large your lion unit is.

Besides, rerolls are still fairly rare, as they should be.

Armies with no access to rerolls (barring heavens magic):
- Dwarves, Chaos Warriors, Wood Elves, Brettonians (if memory serves) and Lizardmen.

Armies with access to a character/ magic item for rerolls:
- Ogres (dragonhide), Skaven (skavenbrew, plague banner), Daemons, Empire and Tomb Kings.

Armies with a spell from the magic lore for rerolls:
- Vampire Counts and Orcs and Goblins

Armies with innate rerolls:
- Beastmen and Dark Elves

and of all these, only Beasts and Daemons get consistent re-rolls beyond the first round of combat.
Perma-SoA for re-rolls on everything is, in my opinion, a boring, unfluffy and poor army trait that I would be overjoyed to see replaced.

Edit: I like what gauly_13 suggests.

[Židrek]

Edit: I like what gauly_13 suggests.

I have to agree with this.

[cptcosmic]

And high elves have the best mages this side of the slann, we're discussing the WL and the greatswords not how their army can support them. Or would you sugges that a warlatar or charcter leading the GS are better in 8t than the same points spent on magic?

give HE super cheap mages that will provide guaranteed side effects covering HE weakness like durability and we can talk. you cant just compare one unit to another one without taking all aspects into account. WL without ASF is useless if support in HE army stays the same.

armywide ASF will go, it can no longer serve it puropse due to step up. The rule to make them reroll is just meanto help them in the meantime, in the end it makes them to similar to dark elves to be viable. I'm sugesting alernatives while you're sugestiing somethign that wont happen (armywide ASF cant no longer survive its purpose so wont make it)

I never suggested to to keep ASF, it is a dumb rule that only served to keep HE from being crap in 7th Edition

Ridiculous. By that logic a cannon can misfire, so its S10 counts for nothing. All those rerolls add is an extra 2 hits every nine attacks (vs lower WS). If those are the difference between a unit dealing 'massive damage' and being so poor that no-one would take them then I seriously wonder what on earth you are playing against and how large your lion unit is.

My personal take on making HE the 'defensive' elf army, while maintaining rule simplicity (which is just the way I like it, helps game flow).

All elven infantry has a 6+ parry save, regardless of weapon loadout.
Elven infantry that use shields jn close combat get 'shield wall', and upgrade their parry to 5+.

To balance this out I'd also make PG itp/unbreakable, and remove their ward save. And obviously play with all the infantry point costs as needed

Keeps it simple, makes HE infantry a viable anvil. Make their hammer units a bit more potent and call it a day!

I dont see how a 6+ parry save alone help them in prolonged grinds?


Besides, rerolls are still fairly rare, as they should be.

Armies with no access to rerolls (barring heavens magic):
- Dwarves, Chaos Warriors, Wood Elves, Brettonians (if memory serves) and Lizardmen.

Armies with access to a character/ magic item for rerolls:
- Ogres (dragonhide), Skaven (skavenbrew, plague banner), Daemons, Empire and Tomb Kings.

Armies with a spell from the magic lore for rerolls:
- Vampire Counts and Orcs and Goblins

Armies with innate rerolls:
- Beastmen and Dark Elves

and of all these, only Beasts and Daemons get consistent re-rolls beyond the first round of combat.
Perma-SoA for re-rolls on everything is, in my opinion, a boring, unfluffy and poor army trait that I would be overjoyed to see replaced.

nope this is not ridiculous. you are comparing a cannon with a melee unit which is not a fair comparison at all! the cannon can act from first round on at range, does not have to cover the distance to close combat and often will never face any melee attacks in the face. the cannon is in my opinion too cheap anyway if I take into account the poor cannon rules allowing the player to snipe stuff that it does not even see because the cannon rules got mixed with template rules.

My personal take on making HE the 'defensive' elf army, while maintaining rule simplicity (which is just the way I like it, helps game flow).

All elven infantry has a 6+ parry save, regardless of weapon loadout.
Elven infantry that use shields jn close combat get 'shield wall', and upgrade their parry to 5+.

To balance this out I'd also make PG itp/unbreakable, and remove their ward save. And obviously play with all the infantry point costs as needed

Keeps it simple, makes HE infantry a viable anvil. Make their hammer units a bit more potent and call it a day!

the idea is good but I dont see how +6 parry ward alone will make HE able to fight in prolonged combats with their high costs (the high costs will probably not change)
but you could take e.g. Martial Prowess rule, extend it to shooting (thus HE are able to shoot in 3 ranks), add your parry save suggestion and make it army wide for all units. some finetuning on certain units allowing a HE general to support the army better and we have a deal.

I think all of you are misunderstanding me, I dont want to keep ASF, but my opinion is that you cant just take it away and reduce the point cost of units because:
1. the GW wielding units will be useless even with the point cost drop cause HE dont have a reliable way to support them in the same way other armies can (no artillery, no reliable way to buff them in melee outside magic) and I doubt that will change, it is not a HE thing. I dont see HE (that usually fight in their traditional ways) suddenly have cheap light cavarly, skirmisher, artillery and cheap characters sitting on some altars.
2. HE is not a horde army and should not turn into one.

[gauly_13]

The 6+ wasn't intended for tarpit units, more of a defensive boost for units armed with gw/bows, allowing them to go to war with maximum damage output, while still maintaining some defense.

A block of 20 spear/shield elves (or 25, assuming some casualties) however would be a great tarpit - 5+ armour, 5+ parry, as well as pumping out 20 attacks on a 5 wide frontage. So they have decent survivability, and put out enough attacks to do some damage.

I should have said before I would remove SoA, except for swordmasters.