High Elf wishlisting...

[Warlord_Grotsnik]

Why the bloody hell do Swordmasters deserve ASF? So not only do they wield large two handed swords with the finesse of a rapier, but they also strike faster as well? 2 strong attacks with high initiative and weapon skill is good enough in my opinion. They aren't wardancers.

[TheDungen]

at first i hated te phalanx idea but then it grew on me, it shoulld ofcourse be called soemthign more elven but sure the elves are the romans/greeks of the warhammer world phalanxes seems logical. However if its a phalanx it shoudl be harder to manouver than a normal unit, "Phalanxes may not do a quick reform test" perhaps?

You dont want str 4 on the bows? its not at all like RxBs thoose are 2str 3 hits. though i can see the similarity with the glade guard longbow. the thing is there is only so much you can do with a d6. And the biggest drawbakc of long bow shooting is str 3, hard to wound anythign but basic infatry and doest reduce armour save. I wouldnt want the shadow warriors to drop in points either they're not much more expensive than normal archers as it is.
But you could make them the witch hunter os high elf society (i know the swordsmasters is givne this role in the latest army book but it doesnt realy fit them anyway) hunting down any taint of chaos in ulthuan to prevent others from falling like their kin. as such they could have a reroll to hit casters?

Why the bloody hell do Swordmasters deserve ASF? So not only do they wield large two handed swords with the finesse of a rapier, but they also strike faster as well? 2 strong attacks with high initiative and weapon skill is good enough in my opinion. They aren't wardancers.

I totally agree, being able to hit with greatweapons at their high initative makes sure they hit before nearly anythign anyway, sure no reroll to hit but they got like the highest non lord/hero ws in the game anyway.

Make them able to parry with a greatweapon instead fitting in the more defensive nature fo the high elves.

[Kahadras]

Drop ASF.

Give all HE Great weapons a 'master crafted/finely balanced' rule to allow them to strike in initative order.

Drop costs across the board as with the advent of step up and stubborn hordes the elite High Elves tend to get mown down pretty quickly and this needs to be aknowledged.

Remove irrisistable force/miscast from High Magic as the amount of training of a Slann/High Elf Mage needs should allow them to avoid the mistakes of lesser races.

Ellyrion Reavers to core, Dragon Princes to rare, reduce the cost of Silver Helms

Book of Hoeth grants you loremaster and allows you to pick your spells from multiple lores (Teclis can have the same ability).

Kahadras

[Athlan na Dyr]

Why the bloody hell do Swordmasters deserve ASF? So not only do they wield large two handed swords with the finesse of a rapier, but they also strike faster as well? 2 strong attacks with high initiative and weapon skill is good enough in my opinion. They aren't wardancers.

Hasn't that been the Swordmaster's schtick for a while now? Besides, of the three high elven elite, they are the burst damage + crappy survivability one, lions are the middling ground and PG are the tanks. They bloody well should be hitting like a boss because they die to a stiff breeze.
Though I'd be perfectly fine with it if wardancers became even better...

[Wesser]

I feel the need to chip in here before my High elf-playing nemesis.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.

2. Instead of Lion cavalry which would be kinda dull, I'd rather see the Dragonmage reworked into a rare unit of some kind. I can provide many reasons, but chief is that we need more dragons (or rather these would be drakes, but you get the idea)

3. Spearmen can't be allowed to get cheaper. As it is I find it insanely stupid that dark elves costs the same as empire state troops. Elves-must-cost MORE! AS to what should replace SoA it depends on the author. If Cruddace is to write the book I'm putting my money on some kind of altar that provides ASF within 6. He's inventive you know.....

4. When it comes to RBT's I'm biased because they always tend to carve a statistically implausible wake of destruction through my army. "Ow did that volley kill all your Blood Knights?", "I guess I was pretty lucky to shoot your general off his monster in the first turn", "Yes I killed that Keeper of Secrets with 2 shots, but statistically I shouldnt have". Oh well aside from my horror stories facing them I just think they should be made into ballistas that can move and shoot allowing for some flexible support fire. Probably wouldnt be quite enough to justify 100 pts, but I think it would different and appropriate for High elves.

5. Phoenix Guards..... that ward save... it's gotta go down. It's the worst kind of fluff. If they know the future then why do they have a ward save? What does it represent? That they are less likely to die because it probably isnt there time or what? If they are to die in that battle they shouldnt have a save. If they are to die, they should be indestrubtible. Or is the enemy able to tamper with future? Because in that case they dont know anything...jeez (okay teh fluff is second-hand, so sry if I got it wrong).

[Graxy]

5. Phoenix Guards..... that ward save... it's gotta go down. It's the worst kind of fluff. If they know the future then why do they have a ward save? What does it represent? That they are less likely to die because it probably isnt there time or what? If they are to die in that battle they shouldnt have a save. If they are to die, they should be indestrubtible. Or is the enemy able to tamper with future? Because in that case they dont know anything...jeez (okay teh fluff is second-hand, so sry if I got it wrong).

I think the actual fluff for them is that the've walked through the sacred flame of Asuryn so are blessed, but I don't have my book on me to hand so that's not guarenteed to be right either

Otherwise, ony real thing I have against your point is about the RBT being changed to ballistas. I don't really think that a moving bolt thrower is that great an option really, since it would suffer the move and shott, but I don't even use RBTs anyway so my opinion's kinda invalid

[Sunner]

Yes, I meant this was a result of the 8th edition change rather than a problem with the high elf book when it was released.

[Hoshiyami]

I feel the need to chip in here before my High elf-playing nemesis.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.


3. Spearmen can't be allowed to get cheaper. As it is I find it insanely stupid that dark elves costs the same as empire state troops. Elves-must-cost MORE! AS to what should replace SoA it depends on the author. If Cruddace is to write the book I'm putting my money on some kind of altar that provides ASF within 6. He's inventive you know.....

Do you realize that point 1 & 3 are something like... keep them being fragile and expensive? You find it's insanely stupid that dark elves cost the same as empire troops... but you're ok with Ulthuan sending its citizens with the same protection as goblins? This is the best Vaul's teachings can do for them?

[TheDungen]

Hasn't that been the Swordmaster's schtick for a while now? Besides, of the three high elven elite, they are the burst damage + crappy survivability one, lions are the middling ground and PG are the tanks. They bloody well should be hitting like a boss because they die to a stiff breeze.
Though I'd be perfectly fine with it if wardancers became even better...

Nah swordsmasters struck in initiative order in 6th edition they got ASF same time as everyone else. Same thing for PG as tanks they used to cause fear instead in 6th the ward save is a 7th edition thing.

I think the actual fluff for them is that the've walked through the sacred flame of Asuryn so are blessed, but I don't have my book on me to hand so that's not guarenteed to be right either

They've seen the chamber of days where the future of the world is written in fire on the walls. I could be wrong but i'm pretty sure only the king passes through the fire. Considerign thta evne he does so under enough protective spells to sink a boat it seems unlikely.

[TheDungen]

I feel the need to chip in here before my High elf-playing nemesis.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.

I cna agree with that, high elves are the warhamemr world version of the ancent empires. Heavy armour was very uncommon in rome and ancient greece.

3. Spearmen can't be allowed to get cheaper. As it is I find it insanely stupid that dark elves costs the same as empire state troops. Elves-must-cost MORE! AS to what should replace SoA it depends on the author. If Cruddace is to write the book I'm putting my money on some kind of altar that provides ASF within 6. He's inventive you know.....

They could make them cheaper if they got rid of that relic of the past of the elves being a dying race (well hello overdone tolkien idea). And altars doesnt fit elves they dont practice religion like that, elves seke out religion whenever they fele they need it, not any other way around. Priests are more spirutal guides than preachers.

5. Phoenix Guards..... that ward save... it's gotta go down. It's the worst kind of fluff. If they know the future then why do they have a ward save? What does it represent? That they are less likely to die because it probably isnt there time or what? If they are to die in that battle they shouldnt have a save. If they are to die, they should be indestrubtible. Or is the enemy able to tamper with future? Because in that case they dont know anything...jeez (okay teh fluff is second-hand, so sry if I got it wrong).

Well the eldar that can see the future can see many possible futures so the ward save can mean that they already know what the enemy will do. i prefered when they caused fear instead.

[R Man]

I cna agree with that, high elves are the warhamemr world version of the ancent empires. Heavy armour was very uncommon in rome and ancient greece.

No it wasn't. The Romans had their lorica segmentata with huge shields and Greek Hoplites were decked out in fully body armour, and also with big shields.

As for High Elves lets have a look at them. Well ASF was originally created because a full on charge could too easily shock elven units off the board before they got a chance to attack, but now it seems to result in unit blenders, and Elves gain no survivability from it. I agree that it should go, but what to replace it with? They could be cheaper, but this goes against the aesthetic. So they could be tougher, but this could also be against the aesthetic. Faster? Too hard to balance. Or perhaps we could do it unit by unit? Or changing the balance of the army. Or all of them.

So first of all I'd move the list around. Lion Chariots and Dragon Princes into Rare, and Reavers into Core. I just think it's bad to have such similar units in the same category. Starting with High Elf missile troops who need it bad. They don't need ASF, so it goes. Archers need a points reduction, as they are poor value for their cost. I also think they should get light armour for free at 9-10 pts (essentially a 2 pt reduction), perhaps with heavy armour as an upgrade? Next come Shadow Warriors. Perhaps they could be more melee oriented and give them an extra HW. Or perhaps a pre-game round of missile fire? A sort of opening shot? Or possibly a form of hit and run, so they can shoot and flee as a charge reaction? Then the repeater, it could stand to loose 10 pts, but should stay the same. I also think they should introduce scorpions to the list. Range 36, St 5 AP as a special unit for 30 pts or so (3 to a unit?). To help hit monstrous infantry and the like.

I think this would help the army as a whole too. Elves are too vulnerable to missile fire, but increasing elven counter fire will help reduce that weakness.

Infantry too needs a change. I think Spearmen should just drop a point, for simplicity, but I think Sea Guard are too similar, they should be changed, somehow. I'm just not sure what too. Perhaps a terrain rule? To represent them adapting to fighting on loose ground. The Elites may be a case for keeping ASF, but I'm not sure. Though I think that Phoenix Guard should trade fear for ItP.

Cavalry needs a few changes too. I think Silver Helms should automatically have shields, but not barding, so that Elves have a fast, medium cavalry. Reavers could do with being a few points cheaper, or gaining a Parthian Shot type ability.

And that's about it for now.

[Damocles8]

Infantry too needs a change. I think Spearmen should just drop a point, for simplicity, but I think Sea Guard are too similar, they should be changed, somehow. I'm just not sure what too. Perhaps a terrain rule? To represent them adapting to fighting on loose ground. The Elites may be a case for keeping ASF, but I'm not sure. Though I think that Phoenix Guard should trade fear for ItP.

well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

[Godswildcard]

Yes x1000. Teclis is busted and busts the game.

I disagree. Lets not forget that Teclis is supposed to be the greatest living mage in this age of the world. Keep Teclis EXACTLY as is. He's a T2, No save-of-any-kind lord choice with far to few wounds to offset either of those. I would simply up the points to ensure he can't be taken below 3000. Jobs a good 'un.

I would, however, remove the Book of Hoeth. Useless item when Teclis is in the same book.

[Hoshiyami]

well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

Skeletons and zombies widely disagree.

And for a miniature-to-miniature comparation (costing 150% is quite a difference), I dare you to compare that empire shielded spearman with an equaly equipped gobbo.

[thrawn]

monstrous cavalry!?!?!?!

drakes! drakes! drakes!

[IcedCrow]

I disagree. Lets not forget that Teclis is supposed to be the greatest living mage in this age of the world. Keep Teclis EXACTLY as is. He's a T2, No save-of-any-kind lord choice with far to few wounds to offset either of those. I would simply up the points to ensure he can't be taken below 3000. Jobs a good 'un.

I would, however, remove the Book of Hoeth. Useless item when Teclis is in the same book.

Nagash is also a super powerful mage... and they don't have him in the game because... supposedly "he's too powerful to represent on the table". He busts the game. Very very few people enjoy games with Teclis involved, unless they happen to be the one on Teclis' side. That by itself busts the game. He's too cheap for what he can do and has no place IMO in a 2000 point game.

[RugbySkin]

Waah Teclis, Waaah Teclis. The Zakdorn have a word for Mismatch. it's called "Challange". So who're you gonna believe. The internet naysayers or a quote form a non sucky non season finale ep of Next Gen? As for balancing him, just do what they did with Manfred. Make him 525, so he's out of the range for a 2000 pt game.

As for Speed of Asaurean, just let them always hit first, regardless of weapon, but no re-rolls. To balance that, maybe a High Magic spell that adds +1 ro attacks for a unit or something.

For Archers, Maybe a point reduction or give them the armor for free.

Silver Helms, make 'em a wee bit cheaper and make 'em core. All the elf noble shave to be in them, fluff makes em sound core.

For Reavers, give them scout. Elves need a good misdirecting unit.

And the eventual "Big Centerpiece Model" they'll be getting, like everyone else, just make it rare, so someone might actually have to choose to take any rare slots.

[R Man]

well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

I think your comparison is asinine. Comparing individual warriors is not a good way to measure effectiveness. 3 points seems to buy you a lot, but this ignores several important factors that are not apparent on the individual scale. First of all, on the unit scale and for equal points, the Empire unit will have half again as many men than the elves. This leads to more durability against missiles, more likely for Steadfast and when they are steadfast they will keep it for longer. In addition Empire troops have access to a wide variety of high powered missiles which the Elves just can't compete with. HE can try magic, but it's expensive and unreliable and the Empire can have a pretty good crack at magic themselves.

In addition you didn't notice that I said ASF would probably go. That's one bonus down.

[Damocles8]

I think your comparison is asinine. Comparing individual warriors is not a good way to measure effectiveness. 3 points seems to buy you a lot, but this ignores several important factors that are not apparent on the individual scale. First of all, on the unit scale and for equal points, the Empire unit will have half again as many men than the elves. This leads to more durability against missiles, more likely for Steadfast and when they are steadfast they will keep it for longer. In addition Empire troops have access to a wide variety of high powered missiles which the Elves just can't compete with. HE can try magic, but it's expensive and unreliable and the Empire can have a pretty good crack at magic themselves.

In addition you didn't notice that I said ASF would probably go. That's one bonus down.

Even taking ASF out of the picture, it's still a killer bargain for 3 points, as for shooting, our archers are 2 points more expensive than handgunners or crossbowmen, have longer range, better leadership, and better ballistic skill, at the expense of hitting slightly weaker......that seems to be a fair difference in points.

[Athlan na Dyr]

Nah swordsmasters struck in initiative order in 6th edition they got ASF same time as everyone else. Same thing for PG as tanks they used to cause fear instead in 6th the ward save is a 7th edition thing.

ah, my bad!

well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

As stated above, no more asf
3 points for Martial Prowess, +1M, +1 WS, +2 I and +1 ld seems about right to me
Admitedly, I've not thought for some great length of time, but ld is a easily modified stat, WS and I bonusses are worth around 1 maybe up to 2 points depending on who's writing the book, Movement is ~0.5 (extrapolating from banner of swiftness on a reasonable sized unit of 30) and Martial Prowess is ~1

A note on Sea Guard: Seeing as right now they're just 'spearmen with bows', how about some other weapon options? Whilst no nautical expert, spears don't really seem the greatest thing to use on a ship to me. Perhaps a base option of hand weapons, LA and shield, with options for:
- Spears (as current)
- Bows
- Sea Axes (read- halberds?)

Just a thought on making them a bit different to the other two core options.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.

Eh, the thing is that if ASF is removed (fingers crossed), you're left with either
a) a fragile force that can't really do much damage sans their elite GW troops, but is cheap enough to field a lot of
b) an elite force thats quite defensive despite their universal T3 due to some gimped special rule or ward (e.g. daemons and phoenix guard with their ward saves)
c) a reasonably well armoured and reasonably elite force (though not on chaos warrior levels)

to me (woo, opinion!) the last seems the easiest and simplest to implement, without lowering HE costs but a bucketload. Retains the elite feel, adds some 'craftmanship' vibes without cluttering the book with umpteen pages of special rules that probably won't work the same way with the next edition.

Absolutely agree with all your other points bar the RBT though.