runefang?

[Lord Inquisitor]

I don't think he's a great vehicle for wounding rank and file, the runefang/OTS combo is a great tin opener for dealing with especially tough or well armoured problems.

[The bearded one]

Il be giving him a go for the first time against one of my mates Dwarves on Wednesday so we'l see how that goes.

Slam him into the unit containing the enemy BSB or runelord, and direct your attacks on him (3 attacks should be enough to kill the BSB in one go, and direct 4 on the runelord, if you're lucky you might kill him in 1 go, otherwise in the second round.

And? So my point stands.

No it doesn't. 7 str4 attacks does not realistically perform the same as 4 attacks with a runefang, except in scenario's with squishy and badly armoured infantry, and using a 250pts grandmaster to kill squishy, badly armoured infantry is indeed a bad way to use the points. A grandfang goes after the likes of chaos warriors, ironbreakers, templeguard, BSBs, knights, non-regenerating monsters, andsoforth (and in a unit of knights with the banner of eternal flame he can go after regenerating monsters as well).

I have always found the "an equal amount of points spent on * insert rank&file unit * does better than x" argument silly, because this may very well make skaven slaves the very best troops in warhammer. A khorne halbedier chaos warriors is nice and all, but he will need 3 rounds of perfect rolling (hit all, wound all) to kill 9 slaves, while slaves would only need to sneak 1 wound through. Models like the grandfang hit hard and reliably, swinging combatresolution in favour of their unit and depriving opponents of valuable assets like BSBs. But fine, you take yer extra halbediers, while I have a grandfang who kills the warriorpriest or captain that might be in that unit before anybody strikes.

[The Low King]

The Runefang is broken, my T5 1+ rerollable AS character was killed before he could strike!!!!!

[The bearded one]

The Runefang is broken, my T5 1+ rerollable AS character was killed before he could strike!!!!!

^ that means the runfang earned his points back in 1 round

[Lord Solar Plexus]

No it doesn't. 7 str4 attacks does not realistically perform the same as 4 attacks with a runefang, except in scenario's with squishy and badly armoured infantry, and using a 250pts grandmaster to kill squishy, badly armoured infantry is indeed a bad way to use the points.

Well, let's not mince words - 7 or 8 attacks, not a world of a difference.

A grandfang goes after the likes of chaos warriors, ironbreakers, templeguard, BSBs, knights, non-regenerating monsters, andsoforth (and in a unit of knights with the banner of eternal flame he can go after regenerating monsters as well).

The problem I see with this approach is that most of those units are hard-hitting and the Fangmaster has no ward. 1+ only goes so far, as my STank can attest.

As I said, he does not gain any benefit from the banner either. My HPA hunter gets a lance, and the difference buys me a couple of knights.

I have always found the "an equal amount of points spent on * insert rank&file unit * does better than x" argument silly, because this may very well make skaven slaves the very best troops in warhammer. A khorne halbedier chaos warriors is nice and all, but he will need 3 rounds of perfect rolling (hit all, wound all) to kill 9 slaves, while slaves would only need to sneak 1 wound through. Models like the grandfang hit hard and reliably, swinging combatresolution in favour of their unit and depriving opponents of valuable assets like BSBs. But fine, you take yer extra halbediers, while I have a grandfang who kills the warriorpriest or captain that might be in that unit before anybody strikes.

To each his own, TBO. I've always found that argument quite plausible. You cannot logically reject an argument because you don't like its consequences. Bringing Khorne and Slaves into the debate leads nowhere.

Admittedly he is pretty good at killing spare time fighter-level heroes. Still it's legitimate to ask whether such a job cannot be done drastically cheaper. I actually think the answer is: It depends.

[The bearded one]

Well, let's not mince words - 7 or 8 attacks, not a world of a difference.

that wasn't really the point, wether 7, 8 or 9. The point was that the a grandmaster with +3 extra attacks blade, with numerous str4 attacks only perform equal to a runefang against fairly squishy infantry, while against anything tougher or better armoured the runefang wins out. If one wants numerous strength 4 attacks, 10 inner circle knights will probably perform a lot better for about the same number of points (with the added bonus of having 10 wounds instead of 3, more horses, and lances on the charge.

The problem I see with this approach is that most of those units are hard-hitting and the Fangmaster has no ward. 1+ only goes so far, as my STank can attest.

The steamtank is a large single model that attracts "anti-tank" weapons, so to speak, though, and has a largerbasesize so will take a lot of attacks in return while it can't attacks back half the time and cannot single out enemy characters like... scar veterans or exalted heroes with great weapons. A grandfang can single out the most potent threats and eradicate them fairly easily. A grandfang can also slice through a steamtank faster than pretty much anything else as well.

As I said, he does not gain any benefit from the banner either.

Why not? Banner on unit, grandfang in unit. Have I missed an FAQ?

[Lord Inquisitor]

Because magic weapons don't benefit from flaming attacks unless they specifically say so. Although that's actually a good thing, means the unit can hit regenerators but the Runefang won't be thwarted by a 5-point item.

[The bearded one]

then that's where the rest of the unit in which the grandfang is placed comes in, I guess.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

that wasn't really the point, wether 7, 8 or 9. The point was that the a grandmaster with +3 extra attacks blade, with numerous str4 attacks only perform equal to a runefang against fairly squishy infantry, while against anything tougher or better armoured the runefang wins out.

True, I did not appreciate that point enough.

As to flaming attacks, I had that situation yesterday: some Knights, TGM w/ lance vs HPA. TGM deals a wound, HPA hits knights, Knights do a wound, HPA kills knights, TGM loses flaming...as I said, it all depends. Had the thing suffered some wounds before from shooting, the TGM might just have killed it on the charge. However, if he has to sit there for a while, the Runefang would've been better. In fact, it might have made the decision as to whom to attack a bit more difficult.

I still remain adamant that I wouldn't want to charge a wardless TGM into such a monster.

[The bearded one]

of course in reverse a grandmaster with 7 attacks would perform better against toughness 1 and 2, and in specific circumstances (depending on howmuch armour they have) against toughness 3.

[Lord Inquisitor]

It also depends on the backup. With Shadow, obviously the additional attacks are better if you can get the Mindrazor off but if you're running light or heavens or beasts then the Runefang might be better.