Refusing a Challenge - multiple questions

[knightime98]

Well, when side A issues a challenge and Side B declines the challenge.
Side A then nominates one character from Side B who must be placed in the rear rank.

This much is clear

It is also clear that said character may not fight and may not use its leadership that round.

What is unclear, is when does the character return to the front rank. Thereby, allowing them to use
magic items, cast spells, and so on. The book is beyond foggy on this point. Clear as mud! I'd say..

My friends and I have been playing that at the end of the combat round (note: not the end of the combat where a definitive conclusion has been derived), the character who has refused the challenge comes back to front. So, in essence, there really is no penalty other than loss of leadership and attacks (in this particular case, both are of no consequence).

My question is this; Does the character remain in the rear rank for the entire combat? or is the character allowed to be placed back into the front rank as we have been playing it.... I don't see any clear cut answer here.. It bugs me to no end.

Any help appreciated...

Lastly, can powers from VC be used while they are in the rear rank? ie. aura of darkness (-1 leadership to enemies within 6 inches)... ???

[T10]

He "is not allowed to attack that round" and his "Leadership cannot be used for any Leadership tests that turn".

He suffers no further penalties: He can still use magical items, a BSB can swtill use the Hold Your Ground rule and so on.

If the character wants to get back in the action, he can use the Make Way rule to do so, or the unit he is in can make a combat reform and place him back in a fighting position.

[knightime98]

So, the pretext of 7th edition if you are not in the front rank - that you can not use magic items or cast spells is now gone?

In essence, every wizard can now hide in the 2nd rank, cast spells, and carry on without any penalties?
Is this now my interpretation ?

From what I gather this seems to be the case. Every wizard can be just like a Slann Mage... A bunker caster...

Interesting and disheartening at the same time. Teclis has nothing more to fear now..

Wow...

[Akkaryn]

Aside the rule that states all characters must be in the front rank if there is room.

You can't make way out of combat. So the only way you'll get a mage in the second rank is if the command + other characters in the unit is the same width of the unit.

[T10]

Yeah, character can end up in the back ranks (here: not the first rank) for a variety of reasons, but there are usually no penalties for doing so. They function as they normally would, with the added restrictions that usually follow for models in the back ranks (supporting attacks only, potentially limited shooting ability).

-T10

[Capt._Jaelinek]

I think characters would displace command models. It would be odd, but the characters have priority. So, no Teclis hiding in the back unless you have other characters to displace him.

[LiddellHart]

I think characters would displace command models. It would be odd, but the characters have priority. So, no Teclis hiding in the back unless you have other characters to displace him.

No, p. 97 under "position in the unit" explains this very clearly. Command group before chars.

[Archis]

Can you make way after the first round of combat? Its a little unclear

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[Cormag]

Yes, you can always move a character to get him/her into combat if he/she is not currently touching enemy.

[Spudlow]

Can you make way after the first round of combat? Its a little unclear

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Page 100, fourth line down says "At the start of the combat (before impact hits...)" Since impact hits only occur at the start of the first round, I'm let to believe that you can only make way at the start of the first round as well. Refusing a challenge just to use the "Make Way" rules to jump back into combat on the next round seems a little fishy.

[Hell Storm]

Page 100, fourth line down says "At the start of the combat (before impact hits...)" Since impact hits only occur at the start of the first round, I'm let to believe that you can only make way at the start of the first round as well. Refusing a challenge just to use the "Make Way" rules to jump back into combat on the next round seems a little fishy.

So by your logic, if a chariot charges into an existing combat, it can't resolve impact hits?

[knightime98]

Wow, the thread is morphing a bit.. I kind of like it actually.

What we ended up doing is allowing the character to come back to the front rank at the end of each combat round. However, at the beginning of each combat round, I issue a challenge and it gets denied. So, the character goes to the back (again and again and again). Since this is a VC player, leadership is a wash ... and by refusing the challenge.. His grave guard models .. all of them in base contact with the Arch Lector and Popemobile get their full attacks. It's a smart play on his part but from my standpoint.. I would of thought that by refusing a challenge there would be some benefits... I held the grave guard unit off for 4 combat rounds and was still around after all the pummeling. What irk'ed me the most was the Aura of Darkness or something like that.. It is a power that takes 1 from your leadership and it stacks with other vamps. So, I was at an aggregate -3 leadership penalty for my fear tests. I passed all of them and with my BSB nearby for the reroll on a few occasions.

Anyhow, I was thinking from the 7th edition standpoint that spells, powers, magic items were not allowed to be used if you were not in the front rank... Apparently, you can still operate even in a defunct state... So, it seems to be written in the book. It's just very vague on what you do in following rounds of combat and/or when the character comes back to the front rank???

[Hell Storm]

He was misleading you about the Aura of Darkness. It specifically states in the description that it won't stack with other Auras.

As has been stated you can come to the front during a reform or by making way at the beginning of any combat round (before challenges).

[knightime98]

Well, I'm not sure what book you are reading.

Page 61 of the VC book says under Aura of Dark Majesty - last line, "This penalty is cumulative with any other modifiers"...
How is that translated into, "It specifically states .... it won't stack .... ".

The penalty incurred is the -1 leadership. So, if you have 5 vampires all within 6 inches that have this Aura. You will be at a -5 for your leadership tests.
Nothing you can do about it... Which is partially why I posted this thread...

Now, if you have another way of relating your idea of aura's not stacking, I'm all ears.. But, I'd need a page number with the reference such as the one above that I just posted.

Let me know...

Edit: Oh, I think what you are saying is that each vampire may not take multiples of the same Aura which is true. Now your argument would make sense. He had 3 Vampires each with this Aura (a Legal move) thus incurring the -3 to each leadership check.
End Edit.

[Hell Storm]

No the rule is "If a unit is within 6" of one or more vampires with this power, it suffers a -1 to all leadership tests." The "one or more" means that it doesn't stack with itself.

[mistrmoon]

No the rule is "If a unit is within 6" of one or more vampires with this power, it suffers a -1 to all leadership tests." The "one or more" means that it doesn't stack with itself.

If that is indeed the wording then I'm on your side for this one.

[Hallock]

Hellstorm is absolutely correct. The stacking of the aura cannot happen and if it did, the game would be broken. I've been played vamp counts for over 12 years and even the last edition specifically states "one or more".

[knightime98]

No the rule is "If a unit is within 6" of one or more vampires with this power, it suffers a -1 to all leadership tests." The "one or more" means that it doesn't stack with itself.

What page is this particular rule being quoted from ?
Edit: I see it in the spell description itself - THANKS
End Edit

If what you say is true then all that will be allotted for the Aura of Dark Majesty is a -1 in total (regardless of how many vampires are around with this power). The other cumulative effects could be for example Doom and Darkness spell with a -3 leadership. There are other things that can adjust this but from our first look this is the way we thought it worked.

I'm glad we are having this discussion now.

[hamsterwheel]

To answer your question concerning models remaining in the back, the FAQs have answered this one.

Q: Must a character be moved to the front rank of a unit as soon as
a space becomes available? (p100)
A: Yes

So no keeping characters in the back or second rank if space becomes available.

[knightime98]

Well, that really doesn't explain anything.

As soon as the challenge is refused the space is available.. Do they just stay now in the front rank permanently.

And, what you are quoting may be in the context that there are command models and multiple characters where a character may be in the 2nd rank because there is no room for that character to move to the front.

I don't think the question you are quoting may apply for this situation. I will give you credit for attempting to answer the question and finding a source.

However, what you have posted just leads to even more questions than any real answers.... If that makes any sense...

The main rule book is so vague on this...