What Are The Best Ways For OnG (Especially SO) Armies To Beat WoC?

[Oogie boogie boss]

I'm pretty much at the point now where I have a fully painted, 1000pt SO army, and after having played a few games with my friend's 'Normal' OnG army (like any OnG army could be normal...), i'm looking to start playing a few games with my own force. Most of the armies i'll be playing against I know well, e.g Dwarves, Bretonnians, Empire, Beastmen and so on.
However, one of the armies i'm also likely to play regularly is my mate's new WoC army, which i've never before played. Come to that, i've never played ANY WoC army.

So, I was wondering if anyone has any advice, as i've already learnt that OnG, and probably even more so a SO army, is very different to my old SKaven army, which I had played with since the beginning of 6th ed.

All comments regarding OnG vs WoC will be welcomed, but those regarding SO armies doubly so.

[Rosstifer]

Mangler Squigs, Doom Divers, Fanatics and a horde of Trolls if you can get your hands on one! Those are the things that give my WOC trouble (Never faced a horde of Trolls, but units of 8+ are nasty, O&G have enough chaff that the Warrior unit with the Flaming Banner shouldn't hit the Trolls)

Savage Orc Big Un's can out fight Warriors if they outnumber them enough, but try not to get them in a scrap with Chosen or Knights, or a Chaos Warrior unit of equalish size.

If he has Knights, Pump Wagons with Str 5, no Armour Save impact hits will be tasty!

I play against O&G with my Warriors all the time. Out of 14 games I'm up 12-2 in my Favour, and the losses were both 11-9's, though I don't usually smash him either.
I think it's a pretty decent game for both armies, quite close.

[Snake1311]

I'm not too sure on this, but aren't your characters much much cheaper than his?
A bit of herohammer can swing combats your way a lot - especially since Big Uns are one unit only, so you'll likely have points kicking around.

Also, foot of gork just devastates WoC so much its not even funny. I'm pretty sure a lvl 4 SO Shammie fits in under 250 pts.

[Rosstifer]

Also, foot of gork just devastates WoC so much its not even funny. I'm pretty sure a lvl 4 SO Shammie fits in under 250 pts.

The only issue is it devastates Orcs right back when the Third Eye is busted out.

Is a nasty spell though.

[Oogie boogie boss]

'The Third Eye' just sounds wrong.... Just to let you know, my 1,000pt army will consist of:

Savage Orc Warlord: Basha's Axe of Stunty Smashin'

Savage Orc Shaman: lv. 2

20 Savage Orc Boys: Command, Additional Hand Weapon

20 Savage Orc Boys: Command, Additional Hand Weapon

5 Savage Orc Boar Boys: Command, Big Un's, Spears, Shields, Banner of Swiftness

3 River Trolls

So, what would people do with that army against 1,000pts of WoC? The magic items are open to change, but the models are what i (will soon) have painted, so they're somewhat immutable.

[Snake1311]

Big Uns are imba, try and find 40 pts to upgrade one of the units. Maybe drop the Axe for something cheaper, or field the river trolls as regular trolls.

It seems like a friendly themed list, so if your opponent does the same the game should be close and fun.

[Oogie boogie boss]

Just to clarify...'imba' means....?

[Rosstifer]

Depends what the WOC bring. You might be in trouble if he brings 2 hordes of 60 GW Khorne Marauders and a Sorcerer. On the other hand, if he is being reasonable, you'll be fine.

[Oogie boogie boss]

At the moment, i think his army consists of 3x18 Warriors, 6 Drogres, 10 Hounds, 5 Knights and 6 Marauder Horsemen. Plus he's working on a warshrine. Character-wise he has a couple of Sorcerers and a couple of combat characters. So his 1,000pts will be a force from that selection.

[Tayrod]

Savage Orc Big Un's can out fight Warriors if they outnumber them enough, but try not to get them in a scrap with Chosen or Knights, or a Chaos Warrior unit of equalish size.

Im not so sure here. Remember, once the savage orcs lose frenzy and the choppa bonus (after being beaten first turn), they'll be quiet alot weaker. Agianst my tzeentch warriors they'll (assuming horde vs horde) inflict 6 casualities in the first round, and 2,58 every round thereafter (untill they get bled down). The Warriors will kill 9 every round (assuming you have the shrunken head)

I think Goblins (maybe squig boms) with fanatics, pump wagons, chariots, and the huge squig is the way to go. WOC sucks at killing stuff like that

[Tayrod]

Just to clarify...'imba' means....?

Imba is used mostly in online games or games that have patches or different versions. Imba means that something is imbalanced and should be "nerfed" or made worse. When something is imba it means that is is too good and it makes the game unfair.

[Urgat]

I can't help you with the SO part, but for the trolls, I'd add a fourth one, and then watch the knights cry

[Razakel]

Just to clarify...'imba' means....?

Just wanted to reply to this and let you know "imba" is shorthand for imbalanced. Usually means something that is too powerful its points cost, but you can fit it into pretty much any game and have it make sense. In this case Snake meant that Big Uns are a very good unit and you should get them if you can afford it

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Evil Hypnotist]

My warriors got hammered by fanatics, mangler squigs and poisoned archers when I played goblins last. The last time I played Orcs it was their magic was the biggest problem for me.

[Snake1311]

Just wanted to reply to this and let you know "imba" is shorthand for imbalanced. Usually means something that is too powerful its points cost, but you can fit it into pretty much any game and have it make sense. In this case Snake meant that Big Uns are a very good unit and you should get them if you can afford it

Imba is used mostly in online games or games that have patches or different versions. Imba means that something is imbalanced and should be "nerfed" or made worse. When something is imba it means that is is too good and it makes the game unfair.

I like Razakel's clarification better whilst I wouldn't say Big Uns make the game unfair, they are definitely 'imbalanced' in the way that the upgrade is way too good for its points, to the extent that it is an absolute no-brainer in almost all scenarios (hence limited to one per army I guess - but then not having a big un unit sops being a viable option, which is counter-productive, so I'd still say Big Un upgade = design hiccup).

It also works at its peak capacity on SO, so in a SO themed list it will be near-mandatory to take if you want to perform well (since I'm guessing you will limit the use of other competitive options in order to stick to your theme).

Keep in mind that WoC are a lot easier to reach a level of efficiency with - as in, easier learning curve to a mid-level performance; if two friends are learning together the one with the easier army will win more early on. On top of that, the armies you can build out of your friend's models are more optimized.

^basically, you are playing at a slight disadvantage due to limiting yourself thematically + smaller pool of models to optimize with + an army which is harder to learn. Don't let potential losses discourage you!

[Oogie boogie boss]

Don't worry, i won't! I am fully prepared for the fact that I will probably lose more than I win. Being a fluffy player, I get enjoyment from the army and the nature of the game, not just winning. Besides, i've put a lot of effort into painting this army well, so i'm just looking forward to seeing it on the tabletop.
And as for the Big 'Uns upgrade, I don't think it's broken. You can only have 1 unit per army, and the bigger the unit, the more it costs. In this force, i've made the BB Big 'Uns simply because in a smaller game, the added hitting power of this unit will make up for the fact that you actually get fewer Big 'Uns. I hope.

[Snake1311]

And as for the Big 'Uns upgrade, I don't think it's broken.

Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion but just compare it to the cost of other similar options (longbeard upgrade, beastmen +1str banner, the old empire knights upgrade, queek's stormvermin upgrade) and consider that it is on a unit which benefits form it the most (due to 3 attacks each) and yet is cheaper than most of those alternatives...

Its also present on every SO unit in every competitive O&G list, ever.

But who knows, you might be the 1st high performing O&G player to never use it I'm a big proponent of variety!

[Oogie boogie boss]

Lol, it is the spice of life. True, 2pts for +1 ST and +1 WS is damn cheap, but again I'd say the fact that you can only have this on one unit balances it out somewhat. As well as this, Savage BU can't have a magic standard, and at 11pts per model for a unit which will not only get loads of firepower and magic directed at it, but has the potential to spend whole turns doing nothing or getting pulled out of position, i'd say it's not too bad. It's one of those upgrades which is balanced out by the inherent weaknesses of the army itself.

I agree that it's a tad annoying to see a SO BU horde in EVERY tournament OnG army out there. It seems every 'competetive' OnG army has the same things: Savage BU horde, BO horde, NG bunker, SO SHaman with Shrunken head and Fencers Blades, etc.
For an army with so many choices, I think it's a bit dull. I know, when my army is bigger it will have a SO BU horde, but then it's a SO army, so that's hardly uncharacteristic, is it?

[Glemigobles]

Back on topic - everything that penetrates high armour and brings 'tons' of damage - bolt throwers,doom divers, manglers, wagons, orc magic. Then it's up to you what unit will soak up what's left of his warriors.

[Goldenwolf]

against WOC, Mangler Squigs are awesome. Fanatics from a block of NG can be fun as well. However, Black Orcs, and Savage Orcs can do ok, but will lose the attrition against the WOC. You need to Mangle them if at all possible, then follow up with the lads. doing 6+ kills with a Mangler on each unit it hits will soften him up. You may also want to make 1 horde of S.O. so that you get the Extra attacks. Against 1 block he'll get 15-20 depending on his mark/weapons, you'll get 35 with a horde of Savage Orc Big Uns. It's still only 10 kills, but better then before, and if that unit has been hit by the Mangler, you may wipe it out. I'd also swap that weapon for the crown of command and be stubborn. Give your shaman the paint for the 5+ ward for the unit. I would also probably take a BSB. Low morale and no reroll spells no recovery from a bad combat. It's doable, but his troops are better 1-1 so don't let him do that to you.