What powerlevel should the books rally around? (and which should be powered up/down?)

[The bearded one]

I'm sitting in a college and frankly I'm pretty bored

Now that quite a couple of 8th edition books have been released, the powerlevel of which books specifically do we think future books should rally around? Some say tomb kings are a bit too weak, and ogres a bit too powerful, for example. Also as an extension to the question (and to provide-make highly amusing debate, yes-yes * chitter * ), which of the old books do you think should be powered down, which deserve to stay at the same powerlevel they are currently, and which do you think must be powered up?

Personally I think the new vampire counts are pretty much at a desirable powerlevel (and have plenty of options and variation), with ogres being a bit too much (mournfangs and ironblasters are prime suspects) and tomb kings lacking a bit, especially compared to the vampy boyz. In comparison with older books I think my own army, dwarfs, should be at about the current powerlevel (but nerfing some of the broken stuff, like an increase on cannoncost, rewrite of the organ gun, and a change to str5 reroll scatter grudgethrowers), but just require some more variety of playstyle.

[Rosstifer]

Vampires, Warriors, Empire, High Elves, Ogres, Empire, Tomb Kings, Chaos Dwarves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins, Bretonians, and Beastmen are all around where everything should be. Woodies need to be brought up a bit, Daemons, Dark Elves, Lizardmen all need a bit of tweaking down, but aren't too far off and Skaven need a proper nerfing.

All in my opinion of course.

As you can see from that, I think the game is pretty balanced atm!

[Snake1311]

The VC combat builds are roughly on par if not stronger than Ogres IMO.

As a dwarf player starting Ogres, I'm fairly convinced that both are superior to the now five+ years old dwarf book, which indeed needs nerfs here and there, but needs buffs in a lot more places.

ТK are indeed a little lackluster from what I've seen.


I'd like to chime in on the cannon costs though. Empire getting a cannon cost increase was reasonable from a metagame perspective, but very surprising when compared to the cost of the newly introduced Ironblaster. The IB:
- can move and fire
- has an inbuilt shooting bonus (2 dice for bounce)
- is much tougher
- can actually perform in combat
- (AFAIremember) has a better misfire table

And gets all this for a mere 50pt premium over normal cannons?

Just seems completely out of line and inconsistent design.

[Spiney Norman]

I'm sitting in a college and frankly I'm pretty bored

Now that quite a couple of 8th edition books have been released, the powerlevel of which books specifically do we think future books should rally around? Some say tomb kings are a bit too weak, and ogres a bit too powerful, for example. Also as an extension to the question (and to provide-make highly amusing debate, yes-yes * chitter * ), which of the old books do you think should be powered down, which deserve to stay at the same powerlevel they are currently, and which do you think must be powered up?

Personally I think the new vampire counts are pretty much at a desirable powerlevel (and have plenty of options and variation), with ogres being a bit too much (mournfangs and ironblasters are prime suspects) and tomb kings lacking a bit, especially compared to the vampy boyz. In comparison with older books I think my own army, dwarfs, should be at about the current powerlevel (but nerfing some of the broken stuff, like an increase on cannoncost, rewrite of the organ gun, and a change to str5 reroll scatter grudgethrowers), but just require some more variety of playstyle.

I think the 8th Edition books are all quite close in terms of how powerful they are, ogres are a bit stronger and Tomb Kings have some issues, but otherwise everything is pretty hunky dory there. The problem with Tomb Kings is not that their book is particularky weak, its that their rules were very badly designed, their achilles heel is total reliance on a very random magic phase, that level of reliance worked ok when their magic system was as reliable as it was last edition, but the absolute necessity of getting the desert wind spell off in order to get your army to do anything means they utterly fail when up against a strong dispel army, like High elves, Dwarfs or Lizardmen.

[Jerry]

IMO all the unpopular books/old books should be buffed and all the previous power army books should be nerfed into the ground. I think this adds diversity to the game as power gamers will switch race and the people who enjoyed the army for the fluff will stay with the same army.
I think it was great when the ogre kingdoms army got buffed but I think they may have over did it. It greatly increased their popularity and that was great because before their new book ogre players were very hard to find.
So really for upcomming books I think dark elves and daemons should be nerfed dramatically to something like tomb king level and wood elves and bretonnians should be buffed to increase their popularity.
This way all races have their time in the limelight and have the opportunity to be the bandwagon. Huzzah!

[tmarichards]

Other than a couple of things with the Ogres book (Mournfangs, Ironblasters) I think they're spot on so far with regards to power levels. To be honest, I'd happily wait another couple of years for a new Wood Elf book (in my opinion it's absolutely competitive at the moment) if it means they'll fix Skaven, Daemons, Dark Elves and Lizardmen because as it stands those armies are terrible for the game.

[Athlan na Dyr]

IMO all the unpopular books/old books should be buffed and all the previous power army books should be nerfed into the ground. I think this adds diversity to the game as power gamers will switch race and the people who enjoyed the army for the fluff will stay with the same army.
I think it was great when the ogre kingdoms army got buffed but I think they may have over did it. It greatly increased their popularity and that was great because before their new book ogre players were very hard to find.
So really for upcomming books I think dark elves and daemons should be nerfed dramatically to something like tomb king level and wood elves and bretonnians should be buffed to increase their popularity.
This way all races have their time in the limelight and have the opportunity to be the bandwagon. Huzzah!

Or, you know, they could all be at a level playing field without armies being OP and UP
Doesn't mean I have faith that GW can do it but...

As for where they should be, O&G seem like a reasonable baseline (though probably far too random to price for consistency).
That way its just
1. Ogre Kingdoms
2. All the other armies
3. Tomb Kings

once all the other armies have been updated.
That way the two outliers aren't all that far apart (would love for TK to be better though... could be fixed [or at least, go a long way to fixing] with a few errata's on healing, magic casting values and something else I've forgotten...) so its all 'normal' in terms of power level.

[Gradek]

While Ogres have two problematic things (Ironblaster and Hellheart), they are otherwise ok in power terms. Really, I don't think any books need to be brought up (although some need tweaking for 8th edition rules) in power. A few do need to be brought down (or at least have certain things in them nerfed). That list would include demons (especially siren song), lizards (slaan/cupped hands), Dark Elves (dagger, hydra, and unkillable lord), skaven (undercosted HPA and dreaded 13), and HE (well Teclis anyways). Sadly, if GW wanted to, they could errata the problematic stuff right now and save us the wait until they get around to all the books, but that isn't how they operate.

[Novrain]

... This way all races have their time in the limelight and have the opportunity to be the bandwagon. Huzzah!...

And all that happens is you prolong the whine cycle forever, just shifting it from army to army.

[DaemonReign]

IMO all the unpopular books/old books should be buffed and all the previous power army books should be nerfed into the ground.

Yeah...
And you're insane.

There are two ways to go by this:
Either we conclude that the game should be as balanced as possible, at all costs. In that case, it's not about 'nerfing' anything into the ground or raising previously shunned races into the stars - it's simply about keeping vigilant against power creep, performing extensive playtesting, in essence making sure that there's an even and fair flow of army specific rules coming out with new books.
The second alternative is to conclude that 'fluff' should have a say in the matter. In this case Dark Elves should get a discount, Daemons should be OP, Skaven Slaves should be dirt cheap, etcetera.

Thank god GW obviously doesn't think about these matters in these terms. The 8th Ed books, so far, have been excellent - and full of suprices, particularly with Empire - and I'm looking forward to the next Daemon Book.
And of course THAT book will constitute a 'nerf' compared to present matters, but the ever-important thing (for me, at least) is that I have confidence in GW actually doing it in a tastefull way, respecting the lore, essentially respecting their player base.

Unlike parts of the actual player base..

[Snowflake]

IMO all the unpopular books/old books should be buffed and all the previous power army books should be nerfed into the ground. I think this adds diversity to the game as power gamers will switch race and the people who enjoyed the army for the fluff will stay with the same army.
I think it was great when the ogre kingdoms army got buffed but I think they may have over did it. It greatly increased their popularity and that was great because before their new book ogre players were very hard to find.
So really for upcomming books I think dark elves and daemons should be nerfed dramatically to something like tomb king level and wood elves and bretonnians should be buffed to increase their popularity.
This way all races have their time in the limelight and have the opportunity to be the bandwagon. Huzzah!

Ugh. So basically you want them to maintain the same terrible balance that happened in 7th edition, you just want different books to be the offenders. As many others have said here, that's a terrible idea. They're on track at the moment to have some really solid balance for 8th edition. Let's keep that up, not wreck it because you want your turn to be OP.

[Graxy]

These are my own opinions on the matter:

Armies that need buffing:
Beastmen

That is all. As quite a few people would agree, I find beastmen failry underwhelming. I'm not trying to say that they're a bad army, but the fact that there are very few builds that can work well makes them a very mono-tactic army really

Armies that need nerfing:
Daemons- Must I explain?
Dark elves- Their offensive ablilities make them a very hard army to combat, and especially in this edition where magic is much more of an influence over the game and they have access to every lore they need to sufficiently buff their units or nerf yours.
Lizards- I ****** hate slann. When putting together the ability to use any lore they want (normally one of the more defensive ones like light or shadow) and the alread durable basic core choices, they're a very hard army to fight hand to hand. You may see this and think "But Graxy, why don't you play the range game and avoid them while picking off units with magic and shooting?" Well my friends, let me introduce you to salamanders and chameleon skinks.salamanders are good. Very good. They're a horde killer, plain and simple, and with the rule for partials gone in this edition they become even more potent. Chameleons however, are what I would consider the second best scouting unit in the game. They are quick as hell, and like the rest of the army, don't give to much of a damn about march blocking due to cold blooded. Their poisoned shots make war machines and monsters boasting high toughness history as well as being a general nuisance.
SKaven- Slaves, slaves, oh the hordes of slaves. Cheaper than a goblin, better basic statline than a goblin, don't suffer from any drawback special rules (other than exploding if they flee, but have fun causing a panic test at a range where the explosion won't damage you. The magic is about on par with the majority of the rulebook lores, if not better than a few (I'm looking at you Metal). As well as this, they have access to gutter runners, which I consider the best scouting unit in the game. Like chameleons, they are fast as hell and have good shooting potential. What sets them apart from chameleons, is that they have a decent combat ability, and with the skirmish rule, which basically allows you to pick your fights, this is very useful.

Now here's the armies that I don't consider underpowered, just need a bit of tweeking to make them a bit more threatening:
Warriors- Like beastmen, they are a very mono-tactic army with not too many builds that can work well. What sets them apart from beastmen, is the fact that their basic units are basically beastmen on steroids. Although they pose such a physical threat, they are incredibly easy to work around, and have half the book not even seeing daylight. Some sort of skirmishers or skouts would make the army so much better.
High elves- Although they have a lot of options, there are very few which are actually viable. The moving of silver helms to the special section forced the army to only pick between 3 core choices (which I will not go into detail about to avoid the infamous core choice argument), which makes it far too predictable and (coming from a high elf player) is quite boring to play with or even make lists with. As well as this, their scouting and fast cavalry are very lackluster. Actually, in the case of their scouts, I would say a waste of the metal they are made of. The thing that keeps them from being put onto the required buff list IMO, is SoA. With the rules for ASF being changed in this edition, their special choices can dish out outrageous amounts of damage (only their special, their core can't really do much with it with low strength across the board).
Wood elves- The third in the elf trio gets a lot of hate from many. I can see why in some cases, but very few people actually seem to realise how old the book is. The main thing I can say about them right now is really a general points deduction pretty much across the board. The army works very well if put into good hands, but is very easily overrun. As well as this, to help with their limited combat ability, a buff to eternal guard is needed. They're the only combat block in the army, and lets be honest, they're pretty bad. I don't have any ideas as to how they could be buffed, but it needs to happen. My only other real Idea for them is if the general points deduction does happen, then I'd probably decrease the killing blow range of waywatchers to 10 inches rather than 15. At 15 for, lets say 18 points or so, they just seem a bit too good.

[The bearded one]

Armies that need nerfing:
Daemons- Must I explain?

please do.

[Wesser]

It's a matter of internal balance to me.

Books are only broken if its the same things that are always taken/ left out. Tomb Kings and Empire are the best example of this. Several units in the these books are sub-par and hence arent taken. Thats the only way you can ever balance a book against another. If the internal balance is okay. Hmm...guess im going into "Cruddace is a bad writer" rant. Better stop...

[Phazael]

The new Ogre book should be the guiding metric by which all other books are measured against. Its simple with diverse options and plays pretty well against a lot of the field without dominating any other army too terribly. Vamps and Empire are pretty close to that, too, with their new books. The newer TK and O&G books kind of fell short of the mark, though. If we are talking older books, I think the current Brett Book is a pretty good midway point, along with the High Elves if the Book of Hoath and Teclis are toned down.

[Phazael]

And PS- Daemons have not been the top dog army since halfway through 7th. Dark Elves pretty much took care of that and Skaven nailed the coffin shut. And 8th edition pretty much put them in the same catagory as Bretts and WoC. They are a strong mid range army that is challenging to defeat, but not really a match for the top dogs. Like HE, they pretty much go from average to god tier if certain special characters are in the mix, but most events pretty much flat ban Kairos and Teclis. Some tweaks are in order to bring them more in line with 8th edition armies, but most of the newer books deal with DoC pretty easily (TK aside).

[Graxy]

please do.

Im not going to go in depth with this, because the last post took about 20 minutes (I need a life) but here goes. Bloodletters are clearly the best core choice in the game. Their offensive stats are much higher than average (being S5 without striking last is very rare and off memory, I think that they're the only infantry unit with S5 base. Added together with their killing blow and above average unit (as well as the banner of +D6 charge range) they are hard to avoid and hit like a train. As well as this, by putting a herald into there, they gain hatred, only enhancing their combat abilities.

Daemonettes are very good too. They shread infantry to bits with high iniatiative and 2 AP attacks (as well as ASF if there's a herald in there).

Horrors are debatable. Better last edition, not arguable. I don't like them, some people do, I don't see them getting much use any more.

The entirety of nurgle has been nefed this edition, since ward saves and regen cant stack, so they're not great.

All of the special characters are OP as hell. Each have their own combinations that can work so effectively. Skulltaker doesn't hit like a train, he basically is a train. He demoishes units and characters alike.

The masque is basically there to destoy you army internally (anyone remember banner of despair + masque + The majority of the slaanesh lore.

The blue scribes are more of a utility thing than anything. I don't really have much to say on them

Epidermus only works with an entirely nurgle army, but boy does he work. Every nurgle unit is buffed as they get more kills (the rate of kills increasing with buffs).

Not much to say on greater daeemons. I don't like them, some people do.

All the rares are really good (with exception of the beast IMO). Flamers are walking fireballs (as expected), bloodcrushers hit like a train and fiends move faster than the speed of light.

[DaemonReign]

Im not going to go in depth with this

Right. Well since your analysis of Daemons is pretty rudimentary, showing every sign of being 'learnt' at Warseer rather than by own experience, allow me to compliment this a little bit:

Core:
Bloodletters - Undercosted by about a point.
Daemonettes - Overcosted by about a point.
Plaguebearers - More or less all right. People assume they were nerfed into the ground with losing the double save, but that's just interwebs wisdom.
Horrors - Point-adjustment will not suffice because they'd drop beneath the 10pts-mark and Daemons are supposed to be 'elite' so a Designer would need to get creative with them.

Special:
FleshHounds - Overcosted by about 5 points.
Seekers - Overcosted by 2-4 points. Arguably something else than mere point-adjustment would be preferable though.
Nurglings - Good where they are.
Screamers - *sigh* Like Horrors, one would have to get creative with these poor sods. Doing a 'Fellbat' on them and almost halving the cost is probably a bad idea, that's why.

Rare:
Bloodcrushers - Add a third wound or drop them by that measure in cost. Take your pick.
Fiends - Pretty much all right. All though both Fiends and Crushers seem somehow to belong in the Special Section of 8th Edition (naturally with bigger minimum unit size so forget the 1+ in this case).
Beasts of Nurgle - Just a horrible unit. Between 10-20pts too expensive to even be worth concidering.
Flamers - More or less good where they are.

Characters:
This is where it gets interesting:
The 'Locus' is undercosted(!) - this is what people are missing to a large extent.
So basically Heralds need a 10-15pts increase in cost without any other tweaks before we even begin to look at other details.

Greater Daemons:
Bloodthirster is the only GD that comes close to actually being worth its basecost in 8th Edition.
LoC and GUO (vanilla) are actually grossely overcosted if we are to be pedantic.

Special Characters:
The Masque stands out as the one unit in this section that needs some smacking. Basically we're talking about "halving" her impact while probably increasing her cost at the same time.
Epidemius' Tally is a bit OTT for 8th Ed, so that could be toned down a little bit.
Skulltaker (in my opinion) could be revised but aside of his Mount-options there's nothing inherently crazy about him really.
Lots of ways to neuter Kairos, if you're interested in playing the game rather than whining.
Karanak is waay too expensive.
Skarbrand is pretty bad.
Ku'gath & Scribes are ok.

Daemonic Gifts:

Loads of dung here like Daemonic Robes, and Staff of Change, that either needs overhauls/pointdrops or might as well be removed all together.
This is complemented by a handfull of Gifts that are simply costed like no-brainers at this point, and they carry much of the actual 'blame' for Daemons having the rep that they do:
Master of Sorcery = Cost should be doubled.
Siren Song = Mechanics like this 'crutch' should not be necessary, should not exist.
Over all, it's in the Gift Section that a keen Designer could/would do perhaps his most important work. There's a lot of internal balance issues here, as with the rest of the book.

Daemonc Icons:
Generally speaking, there should be twice as many Mark Specific Icons (now that they are 'one per army')
Out of the 'small' Icon of Sorcery and Standard of Seeping Decay are both a bit undercosted.
By the same token, items like "Skull Totem" are overcosted for 8th Ed naturally.

Great Icon of Despair pretty much needs its effects halved without much happening to the cost - that's how good that Icon is.

Conclusion:
It's a give and take. Bloodletter-Horde supported by MoS Heralds and Flamers is something that obviously should be toned down slightly. But by that token there's lots of things that need some love as well.
I also think some measure of 'Daemonic Rivalry' would be nice. The best idea I've heard so far is that Inspiring Presence only works on Daemons of the same Mark - 'Daemonic Rivalry' should be hard enough that you have to concider it, but it shouldn't tigh your hands behind your back.. is my thinking there.

Cheerio!

[The bearded one]

Quite a fair assesment.

[Wesser]

Not one I agree with though

Remember how Empire units is now paying for the avaibility of synergy from altars etc. in the list?

By that logic every Daemon unit but the screamers should be bumped up two points, because what makes Daemons OP are the absurd combos they can take.


Ever got hit by Slaanesh lore while the -2 LD banner is around? It aint damn funny thats for certain.

Im not even going to talk about Bloodletters, but if Daemonettes are undercosted then Im the King of Spain. A core unit thats better than almost all comparable elite units out there (Witch elves is the only good match though) while being cheaper? Sold! And Daemon players have the gall to call them overcosted.... I dont even...

Pink Horrors are oddball but all your other cores are insanely good value. You rly get an awful lot more for your points than any other army out there, and your core is actually the best part of your army! AAwesome!!!!! I know Empire, Beasts and VC players who'd envy you for that.


Daemons remain the most absurd army out there. Dark Elves have some rly broken stuff but at least they aint great at piercing armour. Daemons is a "have your cake and eat it" army